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Thread: First Deca cycle without Test - questions?

  1. #1
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    First Deca cycle without Test - questions?

    1.What is the dose would you recommend for first cycle for good gainz?

    2. Is it okey to use deca with Dbol without Test base ?

    3. How often do I need to pin it ?

    4.how much weight I will gain on Deca ?

  2. #2
    EVO V.I.P. P0N's Avatar
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    I can't say I ever run deca without test, but I do run my test lower then deca (400mg test an 500mg deca). I also run 50mg deca ed with that with no huge issues, but I tend not to ne too estrogen sensitive, so your results may vary. While decanoate is a long ester, I still pin it twice weekly. As far as what you will gain, no one in the world can answer that.

  3. #3
    Moderator stevesmi's Avatar
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    guys in the 70's and 80's ran deca and dbol.. that was one of arnold's favorite stacks along with primo and dbol

    guys did not run test in those days because they had no way to block estrogen!

    they instead ran proviron! they may have not known why it works so well like we do today, but it worked!
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesmi View Post
    guys in the 70's and 80's ran deca and dbol.. that was one of arnold's favorite stacks along with primo and dbol

    guys did not run test in those days because they had no way to block estrogen!

    they instead ran proviron! they may have not known why it works so well like we do today, but it worked!
    So I can run it as my second cycle ? What about Low Test issues , how did they get away with that while on Deca and dbol cycle ?

  5. #5
    Cyborg Humanoid Brother Nismo99's Avatar
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    Pro BB Flex Lewis recently posted about the effectiveness of deca only cycles. I wish I could the link to it. Basically, he was running 1500mg of deca per week...no test. If you search around, there are a growing number of people that claim that Deca is an amazing compound with very little in the way of side effects. It's fairly gentle on the body even at higher doses. Because it's highly anabolic, and only mildly androgenic the theory is that you can achieve good gains with minimal androgenic sides and no conversion to estrogen allowing for higher dosages.

  6. #6
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    From what iv read back in Arnold's day, they basically used more steroids to counter sides... So masteron and proviron can be amazing at lowering estrogen.
    Masteron used to be used for breast cancer, so it can really anhilate estrogen.

    Iv run blasts with just masteron or proviron as my only ai.

  7. #7
    Cyborg Humanoid Brother gashred777's Avatar
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    ^^this

    Masteron and Proviron nothmoffer amazing anti e capabilities. Couple that with the libido increase and it is nothing but positive.

  8. #8
    PuritySourceLabs Team Supervisor ~Vision~'s Avatar
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    "they did it in the 70's"..Cool, and they churned butter in a wooden vat many moons ago, does that mean we still have to manufacture our butter through the same means and method?


    By Vision

    There's a NEW cycle concept going around "NANDROLONE DECANOATE" only with this ridiculous concept protocol idea with Nadrolone "ONLY"..
    There's a bunch of guys who are just entrepreneur living in Thailand trying to make a name for themselves utilizing social media all for $$$.. They're clowns.. I sent the one guy a message asking to debate his theory publicly. I'm yet to hear anything back , be warned about this poor protocol.

    Now let's talk about it!

    I admire his approach of someone that considers this idea and I do like his theory, but I do not like standpoint on how some are pressuring this protocol down the throats of users, advocating the superiority of it minimizing the importance of testosterone, and completely discrediting testosterone in general..

    Now where I stand on this - I'm gonna call these guy out, as they did nothing to support what what they're advocating other than stand firm on they're assertion with the belief, at the same time making references about there being no studies for this or that, that's because the medical community doesn't just conduct a study for a yes or no answer and then move along, there needs to be significant reasoning for "why" a clinical study is being done in the first place.


    They even went as far as claiming that Test is responsible for all or most estrogen??? Fucking hilarious.. Last I recall the aromatase enzyme were responsible for this conversion, or better yet he failed to talk about testosterone converting into DHT (in some users) by way of an enzyme called 5-alpha reductase, yielding DHT far more superior and androgenic as an agonist of the androgen receptor, thus being a chemical messenger that binds to a receptor and activates the receptor to produce a GREATER biological response over NANDROLONE (DHN).. This is a case to case, individual vs individual basis, not a one size fits all way of life.. Same guys stay dry as a bone on 1g of test, and others balloon up on 400mgs..Why is that? Genetics!!!!!


    Testosterone has three courses of action, converting into estro, staying testosterone(it's main course of action) , or converts to DHT.. What does nandolone convert to? DHN, and what people fail to understand is that DHN binds to the same receptor as DHT but very mildly, but once you remove DHT or "test" DHN now takes space in the receptors, and now that we're running nandrolone "ONLY" or no "DHT" derivatives this is were users will suffer from ED (and quite possible feminizing side effects), flooding our system with a synthetic progestin, it will increase prolactin serum levels having direct effects on progesterone receptors, pituitary related issues, etc etc
    Further more Nandrolone does in fact covert into estrogen, by way of many,many different courses of action, in ways that medical science has even been mislead and confused about, mistakenly citing that nandrolone doesn't convert into estrogen..
    Below is a read that may explain this subject a bit better, and shed some light on the topic that seems to always come back full circle, all because "they did it in the 70's"..Cool, and they churned butter in a wooden vat many moons ago, does that mean we still have to manufacture our butter through the same means and method? I high-lighted in red the go-to section to save you same reading time..


    Below is some great info cited on the TRUE effects of nandrolone decanoate:

    Most anabolic steroid (AAS) users are not extreme in their practices. While people find it interesting to discuss the cycles of professional athletes, amazed by the number and amount of drugs used to achieve elite levels of mass and power, the common user tends to plan cycles chosen for convenience and reliability. Though it is often passed over due to its familiarity, the classical cycle for decades was “Deca & D-bol,” referring to nandrolone decanoate and methandrostenolone (Deca-Durabolin and Dianabol). Dan Duchaine (deceased), renowned author of The Underground Steroid Handbook and former AAS guru to many top bodybuilders, once commented that if someone doesn’t grow on Deca and Dianabol, nothing will work.

    Deca and D-bol is considered a near-ideal cycle by many recreational AAS users, as it is convenient, inexpensive, effective and relatively free from side effects. [Note: methandrostenolone is no longer sold under the trade name Dianabol] D-bol (a term used generically to refer to all methandrostenolone products) provides rapid gains in strength and mass, though this is accompanied by a significant increase in body water and side effects (acne, irritability, hair loss) are common with higher dose use. D-bol use by women holds a very high risk of hirsute (masculinizing) side effects, including: facial hair, deepening voice and clitoral hypertrophy. It is also important to note that D-bol is a 17á-alkylated steroid, which means that it can cause liver damage at moderate dosages; rarely, cases of liver tumors, malignant cancers, or blood-filled cysts have been reported, posing serious, even fatal threats to a user’s health.2
    Deca (again, a term used generically for many nandrolone products) is very nearly the opposite. It is slow to act, requiring two weeks or longer to generate noticeable gains, but the gains are usually of higher quality even though they are not as pronounced. Deca does not carry as high a risk of androgenic effects in males even though it binds tightly to the androgen receptor. In fact, Deca is actually converted into a less androgenic metabolite by the enzyme 5á-reductase (the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT and thought to be responsible for hair loss and prostate enlargement). Impotence and loss of libido is infrequently associated with Deca; many AAS users combine Deca with an androgenic AAS such as D-bol to prevent these changes in sexual drive or function. The combination of Deca and D-bol is considered an ideal balance of two complementary drugs by most users.3

    One side effect that is not uncommon in many AAS cycles, including the venerable Deca and D-bol cycle is gynecomastia (“bitch tits”).4 Gynecomastia is the growth of breast tissue in a male. This condition is relatively common during puberty and later in life; it is also seen in severe cases of obesity and with the use of certain drug therapies, including: antipsychotics, anti-androgens used during prostate cancer treatment and AAS excess. When gynecomastia occurs during a cycle that includes Deca, the condition is often blamed on other drugs in the cycle, as Deca is commonly believed to be resistant to aromatization. In the case of the prototypical Deca and D-bol cycle, this is reasonable, as one metabolic by-product of methandrostenolone (D-bol) is a potent estrogen, 17á-methylestradiol.2 However, the pristine reputation of nandrolone may be unwarranted and incorrect. Deca is rarely used in one-drug cycles, as it is fairly mild in regard to size or strength gains, particularly in comparison to most other AAS. When used without stacking with other AAS, Deca cycles are generally low to moderate in dose (200mg-600mg/week). It is rare for an adult male to report any significant side effects, with the possible exception of impotence and a reduction in libido (sex drive). This occurs because nandrolone interacts with the androgen receptor and progesterone receptors.5 Progesterone is a female sex hormone, much like estrogen. Many of the steroid-based contraceptives for men being developed within the pharmaceutical industry combine an androgen (such as a long-acting testosterone) along with a progestin.6 While high doses of androgens do lower sperm counts dramatically, to completely shut down sperm production, extremely high concentrations of testosterone are required and the effect is not uniform among all men. Additionally, the concentrations of androgen-only contraception required for effective contraception would result in significant side effects in many people. By combining an androgen and a progestin, researchers have found that fairly consistent contraceptive results can be achieved without introducing significant side effects. As nandrolone is capable of activating both androgen and progestin receptors, it is easy to see how fertility and sex drive could be affected when anabolic (supraphysiologic) doses are used. In fact, natural testosterone production is quickly suppressed and it may take several weeks to months after nandrolone use ends before normal testosterone production is restored. Thus, most experienced AAS users include post-cycle support at the end of a Deca-inclusive cycle, such as hCG and/or Clomid.


    Not only does nandrolone directly interact with androgen and progestin receptors, it also holds the potential of being converted into estradiol (the most potent natural estrogen, commonly a metabolite of testosterone). Herein lies a matter of much confusion. Only recently have the steps involved in the aromatase reaction been defined in sufficient detail to discuss and analyze.7 While testosterone and androstenedione are both natural substrates (starting blocks) for the aromatase reaction, nandrolone is not normally formed in human males in significant amounts.8 In fact, only recently has it been proven that metabolites of nandrolone may be present in athletes absent of the use of anabolic steroids, though again, only trace amounts were produced— below the limits allowed by most drug tests.8 Nandrolone appears to be a very minor by-product of the aromatase reaction that does not accumulate under normal physiologic conditions. Nowhere in the string of reactions involved in classic aromatization is 19-nortestosterone (nandrolone) formed. It is likely that the nandrolone metabolites detected in human males under hCG stimulation represent an overload of the aromatase system with nandrolone being a flawed product, similar to a factory reject.


    Confusion prevails regarding the aromatization of nandrolone associated with steroid use. It has been reported by many sources, including respected researchers in prestigious scientific journals, that nandrolone is a non-aromatizable steroid.9 A close examination of related research reveals possible sources for the confusion and provides a concrete answer to the question.
    The aromatase reaction is a complex, multi-step pathway involving a number of enzymatic reactions.7 It is present in many different tissue types (brain, ovary, adipose, placenta, etc.) and across many different species (human, horse, pig, etc.).10-13 In fact, even certain bacteria are capable of aromatizing androgens.7 In part, solving the hypothesis regarding any possible interaction of nandrolone with the aromatase reaction has been muddied by studying the enzyme system using vastly different sources. It is known that the aromatase enzyme (cytochrome p450arom) varies greatly. Bacterial aromatase has little similarity to mammalian aromatase. Among animals, there are distinct differences between pigs, horses and man that make translating results from one species to the others difficult.7,10,11,14 Further, it has been shown that even within a single species, there are different promoters (signals that “turn on” enzyme production) in different tissues.12 Conditions that may promote aromatization in the testes are different from those of fat cells.
    In mammals, the aromatase reaction involves two separate enzymes that are jointly involved in converting androgens into estrogens.7,12 The first, the hemoprotein CYParom encoded by the CYP19 gene (for those of you who need that kind of information), is the catalyst. It attacks the 19-carbon in two steps and the nearby 1-carbon by oxidizing the androgen molecule at those points. The resulting response and actions of the second enzyme (NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase) cause the loss of the 19-carbon and the simultaneous generation of a phenolic A-ring (a defining feature of an estrogen). In the absence of a 19-carbon, such as in nandrolone, the reaction would be much less efficient if it was even able to function.

    Many medico-scientific journals have noted nandrolone to be a non-aromatizable AAS. Studies using brain cells have shown nandrolone to be more neurotoxic (damaging to nerve cells) because it is not aromatized. It is true that nandrolone is not a candidate for classic aromatization, as the 19-carbon that is missing from nandrolone is the starting point for the entire aromatase reaction. Interestingly, nandrolone stimulates aromatase in rat models, even though it does not participate in the reaction. This would accelerate the conversion of other androgens (testosterone, D-bol, etc).


  9. #9
    PuritySourceLabs Team Supervisor ~Vision~'s Avatar
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    The rest continued::::

    Yet, the results of a recent study published in the Climacteric prove that nandrolone and other 19-nortestosterone-derived steroids can be converted into estrogenic steroids through a series of enzymatic reactions that take place in the human liver.15 The catalytic (accelerating) first enzyme, CYP 450arom, is not present in the adult human liver, though CYP 450arom is present in certain liver diseases and tumors. However, another enzyme called CYP 450 monooxygenase is able to attack the 2-carbon of the nandrolone and begin the generation of the phenolic A-ring…the definitive step in converting an androgen (or 19-norandrogen in this case) into an estrogen.

    Recall that the CYP 450arom played a catalytic role, speeding up the classic aromatase reaction. CYP 450 monooxygenase is much slower and less efficient. This accounts for the comments that nandrolone aromatizes at a rate of 20 percent of testosterone or androstenediol.3 In fact, the rate may be much less. Realizing that Deca is injected intra-muscularly and disperses slowly, and the enzyme system discussed in the Climacteric article was specific to the liver, it is unlikely that standard nandrolone-containing cycles would see a major contribution to feminizing effects from nandrolone being aromatized. However, oral norandrogen-precursors were prominently marketed during the prohormone glory days and an oral norandrogen (7á-methylnortestosterone) is being developed as a potential male contraceptive. It is possible, especially at abusive doses, that such oral norandrogens may elevate estrogen levels sufficiently to cause gynecomastia or other estrogen-related problems. In women provided with oral norandrogens for menopause, researchers speculate that the drugs may hold the potential of increasing estrogen and thus, risk for blood-clotting problems or estrogen-sensitive cancers.


    Nandrolone is considered a relatively safe AAS and has been used extensively by recreational bodybuilders and power athletes. It has rarely been considered to increase the risk of estrogen-related problems, as steroids missing the 19-carbon are not substrates for the classic aromatization reaction. However, in addition to its capacity to stimulate progesterone receptors (a related group of feminizing sex steroid hormones), nandrolone may also increase estrogen levels via a secondary aromatase reaction, promoting the development of gynecomastia and prolonging the delay in restoring natural testosterone production post-cycle. Classic aromatization of testosterone or other androgens may also be accelerated by nandrolone. Oral forms of nandrolone, including prohormones, likely have a much higher estrogenic index and a higher risk of estrogenic side effects due to hepatic (liver) first pass clearance.

  10. #10
    Moderator stevesmi's Avatar
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    ^^^ I read all of that but where does it prove that you need to run test with deca?
    your post actually proved the opposite

    in paragraph 5 you said that deca metabolizes into DHN, I was actually THE FIRST person to write about that about 8 years ago and my articles are published which have been copy/pasted since then by others with zero credit given (but that is besides the point). dan duchaine and none of those gurus EVER mentioned it before, I was the one who brought that to light and I have the evidence on my hard drive on my computer lol.

    and how do we solve that issue? not by running test with it, but by actually running a DHT derivative. hence why deca should be ran with proviron the whole way. using test with deca does not solve the DHN issues, it may mask the side effects but there is zero evidence that it does nothing for DHN. of course adding test will give the cycle more of an androgenic kick, there is no denying that. but not everyone wants that. Rick and I are actually gonna talk about this on our next podcast in depth which should be published next week

    that is why I said earlier that guys in the 70's knew what they were doing, they had no idea WHY IT WORKED, but it worked. nobody ran test with deca in the 70's or 80's.. that didn't start until the very late 80's when SERM's were discovered in the bodybuilding world. would i recommend guys run deca without test? absolutely i would! it is a very mild and safe cycle and nothing wrong with it

    here is an article done which dives into it more written on EF by george spellwin https://www.elitefitness.com/article...rabolin/#toc-8
    Last edited by stevesmi; 10-17-2019 at 01:52 AM.
    Now taking clients for 1 on 1 consults via skype. hit me up
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