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Homeostasis

Mobster

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In the 8 week cycle thread Stevesmi made a point, following a post of FellaFinns, on Homeostasis. I also did a post on this in my tips thread.

In very simple terms your body wants to stay as it is when you try to force changes. We know that we can eat too much and get fat but it's not something that happens super quickly. The same is true of adding muscle. I don't always agree with my fellow mods (nor should I - it'd be boring) but I'm 100% behind Stevesmi when it comes to adding muscle slowly. That you're a LOT better adding 3-5lbs a cycle than you are 10lbs (based on an average Joe).

What we an awful lot on steroid forums, inc ours, is members asking how they can add 10-15lbs and sometimes more. They want to do it in ONE cycle. What they fail to understand is that while a handful can gain that much (and it's is a few) almost none keep it post cycle.

I'll use myself as an example. Now it's best worth stating up front I'm not a lean bodybuilder type. I have the odd vein here and there but my stomach is more of a power belly. When I stand next to an average gym goer I'm the tall heavy one with traps. But in terms of keeping my gains let's use my 2014 injury which put me out of the gym for 16 weeks. I lost 10lbs according to the scales. So I went from 280-284 down to 274lbs at my height of 6'3". Note scale weight not muscle or fat specific.

I've also written of how the gains stacked up over the years. Off cycle it was 3lb PER YEAR. On cycle it went up to six PER YEAR. I started lifting in 1980 (weighing 175lb in 1983) and hit 280lbs and stayed there for a few years around 2007. 95lbs in 27 years. My last cycle was May/June 2018. Recently I have gained weight again. Gains aren't linear and that is, as per the title, cos you're fighting homeostasis .

Often not mentioned, is that we all ignore what would happen to us if we didn't lift, eat our protein and or take AAS/PED's. Would I still be 175lbs as I was when I was 18? I doubt it. I'd have probably maxed out around age 30 and started to loose weight or gotten fat like most middle aged guys. One issue is that the vast majority of forum members aren't even in the game (training and on gear) close to long enough.

Part of the why we use AAS is to force the gains - as it were to force homeostasis. But little by little works better than bigger.
 
I don't think people sometimes really understand these numbers they are throwing out.
What I mean by this is...anyone out there who believes he can put on 10 pounds of pure muscle on one cycle go visit your local supermarket, butchery or whatever and ask them to bring you 10 pounds of ground beef to get a grasp of what that amount looks like in reality.

Do you still think you can put that amount of muscle on your frame in 10-12 weeks?
 
I don't think people sometimes really understand these numbers they are throwing out.
What I mean by this is...anyone out there who believes he can put on 10 pounds of pure muscle on one cycle go visit your local supermarket, butchery or whatever and ask them to bring you 10 pounds of ground beef to get a grasp of what that amount looks like in reality.

Do you still think you can put that amount of muscle on your frame in 10-12 weeks?

Something Mike Menzter suggested using 10lbs of beef patties. As in slap one on the delts, another on your biceps etc. I think I'd avoid the BBQ after lol
 
In the 8 week cycle thread Stevesmi made a point, following a post of FellaFinns, on Homeostasis. I also did a post on this in my tips thread.

In very simple terms your body wants to stay as it is when you try to force changes. We know that we can eat too much and get fat but it's not something that happens super quickly. The same is true of adding muscle. I don't always agree with my fellow mods (nor should I - it'd be boring) but I'm 100% behind Stevesmi when it comes to adding muscle slowly. That you're a LOT better adding 3-5lbs a cycle than you are 10lbs (based on an average Joe).

What we an awful lot on steroid forums, inc ours, is members asking how they can add 10-15lbs and sometimes more. They want to do it in ONE cycle. What they fail to understand is that while a handful can gain that much (and it's is a few) almost none keep it post cycle.

I'll use myself as an example. Now it's best worth stating up front I'm not a lean bodybuilder type. I have the odd vein here and there but my stomach is more of a power belly. When I stand next to an average gym goer I'm the tall heavy one with traps. But in terms of keeping my gains let's use my 2014 injury which put me out of the gym for 16 weeks. I lost 10lbs according to the scales. So I went from 280-284 down to 274lbs at my height of 6'3". Note scale weight not muscle or fat specific.

I've also written of how the gains stacked up over the years. Off cycle it was 3lb PER YEAR. On cycle it went up to six PER YEAR. I started lifting in 1980 (weighing 175lb in 1983) and hit 280lbs and stayed there for a few years around 2007. 95lbs in 27 years. My last cycle was May/June 2018. Recently I have gained weight again. Gains aren't linear and that is, as per the title, cos you're fighting homeostasis .

Often not mentioned, is that we all ignore what would happen to us if we didn't lift, eat our protein and or take AAS/PED's. Would I still be 175lbs as I was when I was 18? I doubt it. I'd have probably maxed out around age 30 and started to loose weight or gotten fat like most middle aged guys. One issue is that the vast majority of forum members aren't even in the game (training and on gear) close to long enough.

Part of the why we use AAS is to force the gains - as it were to force homeostasis. But little by little works better than bigger.

This is so true, 3-5 pounds of real muscle is much better than 5 pounds of muscle, 7 pounds of water and 3 pounds of fat .. and it surely has less sides .. people want to look big and lean quickly, in a month or two .. and get frustrated and add more and more and more ..
 
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/supplements/8-weeks-creatine-65804.html#post1016935 here is that thread

the guy on that thread called me a 2nd grader lol, but he uses 2nd grade logic.. only a 2nd grader would think you will turn into Jay Cutler after 8 weeks of steroids. inexperienced people think this always. those of us like mobster and I who combined have 50 years of experience lifting know the truth.. this is a MARATHON and not a sprint and NO, you cannot put on inches on your bicep in 8 weeks or 8 months even (that is just fat and water).. TRUE muscle mass takes many years. we don't have 20 year old Mr. Olympia champions for a reason now do we hmmmm.. same goes for strength athletes, the strongest guys in your gym are all in their 40's and 50's, they aren't 18 lol..

also if you are playing football, basketball, hockey etc, you cannot just pick up a ball or stick and turn into a pro after weeks.. those guys have been playing their sport since they were 5 years old. there are some few exceptions, but they will always be behind their peers. overcoming homeostasis takes a long time.. we've all seen the videos of tiger woods hitting golf balls 200 yards, lebron shooting 3's, and peyton manning throwing footballs as kids.. you might want to get your kid involved in their respective sports at a young age if you want them to be hall of famers one day.
 
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https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/supplements/8-weeks-creatine-65804.html#post1016935 here is that thread

the guy on that thread called me a 2nd grader lol, but he uses 2nd grade logic.. only a 2nd grader would think you will turn into Jay Cutler after 8 weeks of steroids. inexperienced people think this always. those of us like mobster and I who combined have 50 years of experience lifting know the truth.. this is a MARATHON and not a sprint and NO, you cannot put on inches on your bicep in 8 weeks or 8 months even (that is just fat and water).. TRUE muscle mass takes many years. we don't have 20 year old Mr. Olympia champions for a reason now do we hmmmm.. same goes for strength athletes, the strongest guys in your gym are all in their 40's and 50's, they aren't 18 lol..

also if you are playing football, basketball, hockey etc, you cannot just pick up a ball or stick and turn into a pro after weeks.. those guys have been playing their sport since they were 5 years old. there are some few exceptions, but they will always be behind their peers. overcoming homeostasis takes a long time.. we've all seen the videos of tiger woods hitting golf balls 200 yards, lebron shooting 3's, and peyton manning throwing footballs as kids.. you might want to get your kid involved in their respective sports at a young age if you want them to be hall of famers one day.

Steve ... first off I have respect for you and your knowledge , also for mobster ... I’m still getting familiar with others in here .

On that note , the way questions are answered sometimes are just ridiculous . I would say 60-70% of individuals if training natural for 3-4 yrs and then going on a cycle for 8 wks will see dramatic changes . The question asked was what could one expect from creatine ,,, which I wasn’t responding to but was rather responding to you saying “won’t gain anything on even steroids “ .... I feel you and monster get so aggravated with , yes , some ignorant dumb ass questions from a lot that u just answer pissed off sometimes which I get ... but my statement is this .

I don’t care , no one will sway me opposite ... 8 weeks of hard core training , eating and sleeping alone will show results even wth out gear , now throw in gear 10000000% you will see significant results and yes some real change in physique .


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Also to add to above , I am one if those you spoke of above , I was never in front of a PlayStation , Nintendo etc ... I was at a local park when I was 13 playing wth 17 year olds . I was out in a driveway shoveling snow to play , I would get called in to eat then go back out . I know what it takes to be elite


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I don’t care , no one will sway me opposite ... 8 weeks of hard core training , eating and sleeping alone will show results even wth out gear , now throw in gear 10000000% you will see significant results and yes some real change in physique .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bodybuilding is the ONLY thing that exists (besides maybe playing poker) where people believe they can transform their body in 8 weeks. (i remember the poker boom where every other 20 year old took their life savings to vegas and came back broke cause they watched guys new to poker on tv win millions)

I've ice skated 3X in my life.. each time I went i skated around the rink one time and fell on my ass along the way each time. yeah i can't even skate around the rink once without falling on my ass. I suck at ice skating, and i've not once played hockey in my life.. so you are telling me that I can bust my ass for the next 8 weeks and become an even decent hockey player? of course not. if i went to play for a team they would laugh me off the rink.

okay so now you are changing your post to "seeing changes in your physique".. this depends on what you view as changes and your history.. which also reverts back to homeostasis. if you were ALREADY in great shape and ripped.. then decided to eat mcdonalds for 2 months straight and not lift.. then went back to lifting and eating good you would absolutely transform fast in 8 weeks.. that is what homeostasis is all about. but if you never lifted weights in your life, and are brand new to training you aren't going to accomplish much in just 8 weeks. set a goal for 8 years when you start lifting, not 8 weeks or 8 months

supplement/steroid use is tremendously overrated and genetics/homeostasis is tremendously underrated in this game thanks to clever marketing by the supplement companies over the years. Joe Weider during the 80's revolutionized marketing by putting a juiced up freak on the cover of his magazine and putting "achieve a great body in just 4 weeks!" or something of that nature.. people believed it, bought the magazines, worked out for a month and got nowhere.. and quit .. this phenomenon of unrealistic expectations is why gyms struggle to keep members and get you into contracts. so.. my point is instead of worrying about 8 weeks, worry about the next 8 years. otherwise you will NEVER succeed in this..

and mobster and I's point about homeostasis is absolutely true, if you build muscle slowly over time you will keep it even if you take time off and be much more likely to gain it back faster.. that is why it is so important to BUILD A PROPER BASE when you are young. as an adult it will pay off. same holds true for those who are trying to lose weight and do these crash diets
 
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I posted this transformation on my IG last Tuesday for #transformationtuesday Pic on the left was 19 months ago, pic on the right is my current condition. Three cycles, 19 months and a 24lb difference between the two. Most people want shit now, so nineteen months, by today's standards is an eternity.

I think it comical for those who posses anecdotal evidence at best and "argue" with the veterans that this or that is possible. Those of us who have been in this game for decades know from experience. I personally have 40 years vested in the iron and know a little bit about the subject.
499df257b2e276b9ab4930e6249937e8.jpg


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
In the 8 week cycle thread Stevesmi made a point, following a post of FellaFinns, on Homeostasis. I also did a post on this in my tips thread.

In very simple terms your body wants to stay as it is when you try to force changes. We know that we can eat too much and get fat but it's not something that happens super quickly. The same is true of adding muscle. I don't always agree with my fellow mods (nor should I - it'd be boring) but I'm 100% behind Stevesmi when it comes to adding muscle slowly. That you're a LOT better adding 3-5lbs a cycle than you are 10lbs (based on an average Joe).

What we an awful lot on steroid forums, inc ours, is members asking how they can add 10-15lbs and sometimes more. They want to do it in ONE cycle. What they fail to understand is that while a handful can gain that much (and it's is a few) almost none keep it post cycle.

I'll use myself as an example. Now it's best worth stating up front I'm not a lean bodybuilder type. I have the odd vein here and there but my stomach is more of a power belly. When I stand next to an average gym goer I'm the tall heavy one with traps. But in terms of keeping my gains let's use my 2014 injury which put me out of the gym for 16 weeks. I lost 10lbs according to the scales. So I went from 280-284 down to 274lbs at my height of 6'3". Note scale weight not muscle or fat specific.

I've also written of how the gains stacked up over the years. Off cycle it was 3lb PER YEAR. On cycle it went up to six PER YEAR. I started lifting in 1980 (weighing 175lb in 1983) and hit 280lbs and stayed there for a few years around 2007. 95lbs in 27 years. My last cycle was May/June 2018. Recently I have gained weight again. Gains aren't linear and that is, as per the title, cos you're fighting homeostasis .

Often not mentioned, is that we all ignore what would happen to us if we didn't lift, eat our protein and or take AAS/PED's. Would I still be 175lbs as I was when I was 18? I doubt it. I'd have probably maxed out around age 30 and started to loose weight or gotten fat like most middle aged guys. One issue is that the vast majority of forum members aren't even in the game (training and on gear) close to long enough.

Part of the why we use AAS is to force the gains - as it were to force homeostasis. But little by little works better than bigger.
excellent post and points brother
 
bodybuilding is the ONLY thing that exists (besides maybe playing poker) where people believe they can transform their body in 8 weeks. (i remember the poker boom where every other 20 year old took their life savings to vegas and came back broke cause they watched guys new to poker on tv win millions)

I've ice skated 3X in my life.. each time I went i skated around the rink one time and fell on my ass along the way each time. yeah i can't even skate around the rink once without falling on my ass. I suck at ice skating, and i've not once played hockey in my life.. so you are telling me that I can bust my ass for the next 8 weeks and become an even decent hockey player? of course not. if i went to play for a team they would laugh me off the rink.

okay so now you are changing your post to "seeing changes in your physique".. this depends on what you view as changes and your history.. which also reverts back to homeostasis. if you were ALREADY in great shape and ripped.. then decided to eat mcdonalds for 2 months straight and not lift.. then went back to lifting and eating good you would absolutely transform fast in 8 weeks.. that is what homeostasis is all about. but if you never lifted weights in your life, and are brand new to training you aren't going to accomplish much in just 8 weeks. set a goal for 8 years when you start lifting, not 8 weeks or 8 months

supplement/steroid use is tremendously overrated and genetics/homeostasis is tremendously underrated in this game thanks to clever marketing by the supplement companies over the years. Joe Weider during the 80's revolutionized marketing by putting a juiced up freak on the cover of his magazine and putting "achieve a great body in just 4 weeks!" or something of that nature.. people believed it, bought the magazines, worked out for a month and got nowhere.. and quit .. this phenomenon of unrealistic expectations is why gyms struggle to keep members and get you into contracts. so.. my point is instead of worrying about 8 weeks, worry about the next 8 years. otherwise you will NEVER succeed in this..

and mobster and I's point about homeostasis is absolutely true, if you build muscle slowly over time you will keep it even if you take time off and be much more likely to gain it back faster.. that is why it is so important to BUILD A PROPER BASE when you are young. as an adult it will pay off. same holds true for those who are trying to lose weight and do these crash diets

changing my post ???? I said you would absolutely see changes and results in the original response , so I used different words n the above post that mean that exact same thing !!!! holy fuk , there's no saying anything on this board without it being twisted lol . period point blank 24 lbs by Wesley and if you do the math that's 8 lbs per cycle not counting off time but everyone is so fukking brainwashed around here they don't even understand there own progress . 19 months and gained 24 lbs but a newbie wont gain shit in 2 months on juice , get the fuk outta here , yall need to get off your high horse and realize yall aint the gods of steroids , working out , and nutrition !!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

I posted this transformation on my IG last Tuesday for #transformationtuesday Pic on the left was 19 months ago, pic on the right is my current condition. Three cycles, 19 months and a 24lb difference between the two. Most people want shit now, so nineteen months, by today's standards is an eternity.

I think it comical for those who posses anecdotal evidence at best and "argue" with the veterans that this or that is possible. Those of us who have been in this game for decades know from experience. I personally have 40 years vested in the iron and know a little bit about the subject.
499df257b2e276b9ab4930e6249937e8.jpg


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yea and your going against what all you 40 year experienced vets are trying to say ….. you put on 24 lbs in 19 months and three cycles , that's far from having to take years and years to see a little progress I would say wouldn't you
 
^^^ you still aren't getting it.. someone 'new to this' can most certainly put on a ton of weight on steroids fast, but it won't be ACTUAL MUSCLE and he isn't going to be on the mr. olympia stage.

as for wesley re-read what he said.. he put in 40 years of training. he is going to be able to easily gain, cut, bulk at his leisure.. he has 40 years of muscle/body memory to tap into. he could stop training cold turkey for 3 months, go sip margaritas in jamaica.. then come back and hit the gym and be right back where he left off pretty damn quickly thanks to the base he built over the years.

what about those pro athletes who tear ACL's and are on crutches for months, miss the entire season.. then the next season they come back and have a great year? is that not homeostasis? they could not even walk a couple months prior. sorry but you are wrong on this my man, dead FLAT OUT WRONG.

homeostasis and body memory are VERY REAL things. so no a new person to any sport, skill, or weight training cannot just become pro's in 8 weeks..
 
End of convo for me , im NOWHERE near dead flat out wrong , ill agree that were both correct to a degree , but I was NEVER saying Mr Olympia and you know that , I NEVER said a pro level or even college level , I said gain muscle , have a noticeable difference after 8 weeks and that's a fact .


I completely believe in homeostasis !!!! I NEVER said I didn't or even commented on that !!!!!!

Heres a a quick little comparison of what you are trying to back up but im still correct as well …….a person can go sit in a sauna for 3 days lose 12-15 lbs and someone will say man you look skinny have you lost weight ? Also a person can do dianobol for 4 weeks and guess what a person is gonna say dammm you been lifting you look big . Water loss and water gain , but also there will be some actual weight loss and some actual muscle gain . Very little but there will be , now get on a real steroid for 8 WEEKS not that bloat pill and you will see legit gains , not mr Olympia but gains , but some solid muscle I don't care if its 2,3,4,5 lbs its still something !!!!!!!
 
End of convo for me , im NOWHERE near dead flat out wrong , ill agree that were both correct to a degree , but I was NEVER saying Mr Olympia and you know that , I NEVER said a pro level or even college level , I said gain muscle , have a noticeable difference after 8 weeks and that's a fact .


I completely believe in homeostasis !!!! I NEVER said I didn't or even commented on that !!!!!!

Heres a a quick little comparison of what you are trying to back up but im still correct as well …….a person can go sit in a sauna for 3 days lose 12-15 lbs and someone will say man you look skinny have you lost weight ? Also a person can do dianobol for 4 weeks and guess what a person is gonna say dammm you been lifting you look big . Water loss and water gain , but also there will be some actual weight loss and some actual muscle gain . Very little but there will be , now get on a real steroid for 8 WEEKS not that bloat pill and you will see legit gains , not mr Olympia but gains , but some solid muscle I don't care if its 2,3,4,5 lbs its still something !!!!!!!

Wesley gained 24lbs total. But he also added 3% bodyfat. He doesn't say what he was when he started (like 20+ years back??), what he was at his lightest or heaviest and so on. As you say, quite correctly (and I mentioned it) losing weight in a sauna is water weight. Seen right after he/she comes out of the sauna they'd look and be lighter. Then they'd drink and it'd come right back. It's false advertizing. How many of us remember those Cybernetic ads...? Or Muscletech. Pros out of shape then in shape.

And whether or not it's 2lb or 5lbs and is something - almost no one has addressed the keeping it. Will Wesley still be 202lbs and 13% in another month?
 
I posted this transformation on my IG last Tuesday for #transformationtuesday Pic on the left was 19 months ago, pic on the right is my current condition. Three cycles, 19 months and a 24lb difference between the two. Most people want shit now, so nineteen months, by today's standards is an eternity.

I think it comical for those who posses anecdotal evidence at best and "argue" with the veterans that this or that is possible. Those of us who have been in this game for decades know from experience. I personally have 40 years vested in the iron and know a little bit about the subject.
499df257b2e276b9ab4930e6249937e8.jpg


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You look better with more size...
And wtf is that hair cut on the left jesus christ man lmao...
Love the 90s sting Tshirt too lol...throwback
 
You look better with more size...
And wtf is that hair cut on the left jesus christ man lmao...
Love the 90s sting Tshirt too lol...throwback

You sound like my nagging 2nd ex wife...no wait, my 3rd

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I posted this transformation on my IG last Tuesday for #transformationtuesday Pic on the left was 19 months ago, pic on the right is my current condition. Three cycles, 19 months and a 24lb difference between the two. Most people want shit now, so nineteen months, by today's standards is an eternity.

I think it comical for those who posses anecdotal evidence at best and "argue" with the veterans that this or that is possible. Those of us who have been in this game for decades know from experience. I personally have 40 years vested in the iron and know a little bit about the subject.
499df257b2e276b9ab4930e6249937e8.jpg


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
So in 19 months you lost your hair. :-D

Excuse all the misspells and auto-corrects, my phone thinks it knows better...
 
You sound like my nagging 2nd ex wife...no wait, my 3rd

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Lmao i try...
And im at 230lbs right now and feel smaller than you look at 202...im not a fat fuck either but def over the 13% bf mark...prob 18% right now...
I never feel like i have good size...
Anyone else suffer from this??
 
Wesley gained 24lbs total. But he also added 3% bodyfat. He doesn't say what he was when he started (like 20+ years back??), what he was at his lightest or heaviest and so on. As you say, quite correctly (and I mentioned it) losing weight in a sauna is water weight. Seen right after he/she comes out of the sauna they'd look and be lighter. Then they'd drink and it'd come right back. It's false advertizing. How many of us remember those Cybernetic ads...? Or Muscletech. Pros out of shape then in shape.

And whether or not it's 2lb or 5lbs and is something - almost no one has addressed the keeping it. Will Wesley still be 202lbs and 13% in another month?
I started weight training in high school and weighed a whopping 130lbs. when I graduated in 1979. By 38(20 years ago) I weighed 205lb at roughly 7% bf. So in a 20 year timespan, I put on about 75lbs of quality muscle naturally, with nothing more than hard work, real food, focus and drive.
That being said, I admit I get extremely frustrated when a gym noob comes on a whines about not seeing gains right away and wants to jump on gear without the proper foundation. OR the 30 something y/o guy who hits the dreaded "plateau" after 3 years of lifting.


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^^^ you still aren't getting it.. someone 'new to this' can most certainly put on a ton of weight on steroids fast, but it won't be ACTUAL MUSCLE and he isn't going to be on the mr. olympia stage.

as for wesley re-read what he said.. he put in 40 years of training. he is going to be able to easily gain, cut, bulk at his leisure.. he has 40 years of muscle/body memory to tap into. he could stop training cold turkey for 3 months, go sip margaritas in jamaica.. then come back and hit the gym and be right back where he left off pretty damn quickly thanks to the base he built over the years.

what about those pro athletes who tear ACL's and are on crutches for months, miss the entire season.. then the next season they come back and have a great year? is that not homeostasis? they could not even walk a couple months prior. sorry but you are wrong on this my man, dead FLAT OUT WRONG.

homeostasis and body memory are VERY REAL things. so no a new person to any sport, skill, or weight training cannot just become pro's in 8 weeks..
Thanks for breaking that down Steve, but you and I both know that some people will argue until they are red in the face and have no better argument than..."I'm right, because I'm not wrong."

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