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Thread: Milk Thistle - good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors. Have ti post this one

  1. #1
    Needtogetaas
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    Milk Thistle - good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors. Have ti post this one

    For years steroid users have been taking Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum, which contains the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin and the active component silibinin) to protect their livers from potentially hepatoxic oral steroids. In the Anabolics series of books, William Llewellyn talks about using this stuff as a liver protector. Well, he’s wrong…yeah, it’ll protect your liver, but it’s also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.
    Less androgen receptor activity + less IGF-1 = less muscle and strength.


    MuscleTech uses milk thistle in some of their products as does Universal (it’s in their Animal Pack and some others), as does [IMG]http://www.*****************/store/musclepharm/images/battle_fuel_450_white.jpeg[/IMG]Muscle Pharm and MHP (who stupidly included it in a product designed to boost testosterone). Anabolic Innovations includes Milk Thistle in a product called “Cycle Support“- so clearly this stuff is being marketed heavily towards steroid users. Llewellyn even includes it in his “Liver Stabil” product….but users will pretty quickly find out that it’s making them gain less muscle and strength.
    In any case, I’ve never been a fan of this kind of thing, i.e. taking one thing to stop side effects from another…robbing Peter to pay Paul, or Ringo or whatever…. To my way of thinking, if your dose is too high, it’s too high, and adding another chemical into the mix (herbal or not), is not the solution. Sure, you can take a ton of steroids with liver protectors and anti-estrogens and all kinds of other stuff…but why wouldn’t you just cut the dose down and not take all the other crap?
    [IMG]http://www.**********************/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/c1004f4-206x300.jpg[/IMG]Effects of SM and SB on whole cell AR levels (a), transcription activity of the AR promoter (b) and ligand-binding activity of the AR (c). The upper panel in (a) shows a representative western blot analysis of total AR protein levels in LNCaP cells and Ponceau S staining, representing protein loading. The lower panel in (a) is a densitometric analysis of total AR protein levels from three independent experiments.

    We know that estrogen is necessary for optimal growth, so why would we mega-dose on steroids, but then take an anti-estrogen with them? Our gains will effectively be reduced in a similar way to simply taking a lower dose – which would obviously cost less (the savings from lowering the dose + not buying the anti-estrogen). Using a lower (non-side effect causing) dose seems to make more sense (or using non-aromatizing androgens). So why would we take a ton of (potentially toxic) oral steroids with a liver protector? What if I could make the case that taking a liver protector (*in this case, Milk Thistle) will actually cause your entire cycle to be less effective?
    I’ve been doing some research into Milk Thistle recently, because it’s the most commonly used liver protector for steroid users. It’s sold at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc…and it not only works to protect the liver, it’s also pretty cheap. For years, mediocre supplement designers have been slamming this stuff into any formula that could be liver toxic, and then forgetting about it. It’s a no-brainer (literally). People just cram the stuff in their supplements without doing any real research.
    The problem with Milk Thistle is that it inhibits certain functions within your androgen receptors, thereby making the steroids (androgens) you’re taking less effective – this is why it has been studied as a possible chemoprotective agent for androgen dependent cancers. The active component in Milk Thistle effectively reduces nuclear androgen receptor levels (click for the full study), and down-regulates several androgen-regulated genes primarily by inhibiting the transactivation activity of the AR, and can also inhibit nuclear localization of the androgen receptor. Admittedly this study only looks at certain site-specific androgen receptor cells, in certain situations, but I see no reason in the available data to think these effects wouldn’t be the case elsewhere.
    I’ve also looked at several related studies, and I think that this stuff simply isn’t the best choice for liver protection. I’m not saying “don’t ever protect your liver with a supplement” – I’m saying find something other than Milk Thistle, ok? And lower the f*cking dose, or don’t use orals (like me) if you think you’re going to damage your liver. With the available information on Milk Thistle, why continue using the stuff? Certainly we know there are other things that protect the liver, and if we have reliable evidence that strongly suggests against Milk Thistle being ideal, then we shouldn’t be using it. Again, I’m not saying “don’t ever use anything to protect your liver” – I’m just arguing against this one product because I think it’s less than ideal for steroid users.
    In fact, there is additional information available that strongly suggests that Milk Thistle will also have an inhibitory effect on the insulin-like growth factor I receptor-mediated signaling pathway. All in all, there seems to be a reasonable expectation that this stuff is anti-anabolic. Lowering IGF-1 is important for treating cancer, which makes Milk Thistle a promising compound in that field.
    Uncle Chop-Chop

    Nobody is right all of the time, and I’ve probably thought this stuff was a good idea in the past, and even recommended it (like Llewellyn and a lot of other people), but the truth is that Milk Thistle looks like an extremely bad idea for use on a cycle – at least if you want your cycle to be as effective as possible. I know that these studies aren’t perfect (i.e. they don’t examine healthy, weight training individuals, using steroids, etc…), but I’m still reasonably confidant that Milk Thistle will inhibit your gains from a cycle, and that’s the bottom line. I don’t know how much. Maybe a little. Maybe a lot. Either way there’s better choices out there, and no, I don’t sell a liver-support product, and no I don’t have a vested interest in bashing Milk Thistle…nor am I saying not to protect your liver (because if your liver gets destroyed, you’ll die). I’m just saying that this shouldn’t be your first choice (or any choice, really).
    I wonder how many of these guys will be reformulating their products now?




    Milk Thistle – good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors | Anthony Roberts

    Feel free to discus the points put froth in this write up. I found it interesting and something that should at least be discussed.

  2. #2
    Buff Brother brandman's Avatar
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    Very interesting....thanks for the info Needto!
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”

    -Winston Churchill

  3. #3
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    awesome im in the middle of my cycle now and ive been taking milk thistle good shit

  4. #4
    Proficient Brother pittman's Avatar
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    All the more reason to wait for On-Guard before I start my cycle!
    [B][COLOR="Navy"]My lifestyle determines my death style.[/COLOR][/B]

  5. #5
    Advanced Cyborg Brother imported_Skyling35's Avatar
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    This is onguard from an earlier post on here. It does contain milk thistle though I suppose it could have changed. It does have a receptor capsule wiith LCLT and some others so maybe that will counteract this if there is any actual problem with it.

    Cholesterol control capsule: A blend of

    Policostonol:5mgs

    Apple pectin: 250 mgs

    Evening primrose oil: 200 mgs

    ……………..

    Blood Pressure regulator capsule:

    Hawthorn extract:75 mgs

    Turmeric:125mgs

    Taurine: 100mgs

    Allicin: 50 mgs

    ………………………………….

    Anti Water Retention capsule

    Dandelion: 200mgs

    Pamabrom: 10 mgs

    Uve Ursi: 75 mgs

    Parsley Leaf: 150 mgs

    …………………………………

    Ergogenic Adaptogens

    Docosahexaenoic acid: 15 mgs

    Rhodiola: 100mgs

    Bacoba : 25mgs

    Yerba Mate: 200 mgs

    …………………………………………

    Anti oxidant and cell repair capsule

    Glutathione: 100 mgs

    Vitamin C : 50 mgs

    Vitamin E : 25 mgs

    Zinc: 10 mgs

    …………………………………………

    Receptor upgrade capsule

    Acetyl L Carnitine L Tartate 350 mgs

    Chlorophyll: 100 mgs

    Beta Glucan: 100 mgs

    Piperine: 5 mgs



    Vitamin capsule

    Vitamin A: 5000 i.u's

    Vitamin C: 250mgs

    Vitamin D: 100 mgs

    Vit B1: 25 mgs

    Vit B2: 25 mgs

    Vit B6: 25 mgs

    Vit b12: 100 mcgs

    Folic Acid: 1000mcgs

    iodine: 100 mcgs

    Pantothenic acid: 25mgs

    Zinc: 15 mgs

    Magnesium: 50 mgs

    Maganese: 5 mgs

    Selenium: 25 mcgs

    Co Q 10: 10 mcgs

    Boron: 1 mg.

    Calcium d Glucarate; 100mgs

    Maca: 100 mgs

    Indole 3 Carbinol: 50 mgs


    Liver protection Blend

    NAC

    Milk thistle

    Saw palmetto

    Red yeast rice

    Astragalus

    P. choline

    First N-acetyl-L-Cysteine (NAC. This is what is given to poison victims to protect their livers, and it has been well accepted by the medical community as a very powerful antioxidant. It should go without saying that antioxidants are crucial in preventing damage done to the body by free radicals. Free radicals often arise when compounds are detoxified. This is often the case during a disgner supplement cycle. Though, what often isn't talked about is that our bodies make some antioxidants, and others we can only get from the foods we eat, especially fruits and vegetables. And while most of these have yet been classified as essential, as vitamins, it may only be because enough studies haven't been done yet. But who knows how much those antioxidants you may not be getting enough of have an effect on preventing diseases like cancer and the effects of old age. Or worse liver damage well running a liver stressing cycle.

    In addition to NAC Forged liver support has several other powerful antioxidants that have been studied specifically for their beneficial effect on the liver. Milk thistle has been demonstrated in studies to reduce liver inflammation and improve liver function in patients with liver disease. Another antioxidant included is the herb Astragalus, a type of bean that has been used in Chinese medicine for over 2,000 years. Among its many curative properties, the Chinese used this for treating the liver. research in the past decade has focused on its effect on the liver, fighting viral infections, and its role in the treatment of cancer. Interestingly an extract has been shown to prevent the shortening of telomeres, which are the caps on DNA that keep cells young.

    Next up is Phosphatidylcholine, which is another big gun supplement for the liver. This is a great bioactive form of the essential B vitamin Choline. This supplement is a key component of cell membranes as well as the molecules that transport fat out of the liver. High concentrations are found in the brain and liver. As a result it has been used as support in Alzheimer's, depression, and other brain disorders. Deficiency in the diet can lead to liver disease, and supplementation is used for individuals with liver disease or damage. Regulating cholesterol levels in the body is a large function of the liver. So to provide extra support Forged liver support has red yeast rice, which contains chemicals similar to those in cholesterol medications for reducing cholesterol levels in the body.
    My new motto:

    [B][FONT="Arial Black"][SIZE="5"]Bring The ******* [/SIZE][SIZE="7"][COLOR="Red"]PAIN[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

  6. #6
    Needtogetaas
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyling35 View Post
    This is onguard from an earlier post on here. It does contain milk thistle though I suppose it could have changed. It does have a receptor capsule wiith LCLT and some others so maybe that will counteract this if there is any actual problem with it.

    Cholesterol control capsule: A blend of

    Policostonol:5mgs

    Apple pectin: 250 mgs

    Evening primrose oil: 200 mgs

    ……………..

    Blood Pressure regulator capsule:

    Hawthorn extract:75 mgs

    Turmeric:125mgs

    Taurine: 100mgs

    Allicin: 50 mgs

    ………………………………….

    Anti Water Retention capsule

    Dandelion: 200mgs

    Pamabrom: 10 mgs

    Uve Ursi: 75 mgs

    Parsley Leaf: 150 mgs

    …………………………………

    Ergogenic Adaptogens

    Docosahexaenoic acid: 15 mgs

    Rhodiola: 100mgs

    Bacoba : 25mgs

    Yerba Mate: 200 mgs

    …………………………………………

    Anti oxidant and cell repair capsule

    Glutathione: 100 mgs

    Vitamin C : 50 mgs

    Vitamin E : 25 mgs

    Zinc: 10 mgs

    …………………………………………

    Receptor upgrade capsule

    Acetyl L Carnitine L Tartate 350 mgs

    Chlorophyll: 100 mgs

    Beta Glucan: 100 mgs

    Piperine: 5 mgs



    Vitamin capsule

    Vitamin A: 5000 i.u's

    Vitamin C: 250mgs

    Vitamin D: 100 mgs

    Vit B1: 25 mgs

    Vit B2: 25 mgs

    Vit B6: 25 mgs

    Vit b12: 100 mcgs

    Folic Acid: 1000mcgs

    iodine: 100 mcgs

    Pantothenic acid: 25mgs

    Zinc: 15 mgs

    Magnesium: 50 mgs

    Maganese: 5 mgs

    Selenium: 25 mcgs

    Co Q 10: 10 mcgs

    Boron: 1 mg.

    Calcium d Glucarate; 100mgs

    Maca: 100 mgs

    Indole 3 Carbinol: 50 mgs


    Liver protection Blend

    NAC

    Milk thistle

    Saw palmetto

    Red yeast rice

    Astragalus

    P. choline

    First N-acetyl-L-Cysteine (NAC. This is what is given to poison victims to protect their livers, and it has been well accepted by the medical community as a very powerful antioxidant. It should go without saying that antioxidants are crucial in preventing damage done to the body by free radicals. Free radicals often arise when compounds are detoxified. This is often the case during a disgner supplement cycle. Though, what often isn't talked about is that our bodies make some antioxidants, and others we can only get from the foods we eat, especially fruits and vegetables. And while most of these have yet been classified as essential, as vitamins, it may only be because enough studies haven't been done yet. But who knows how much those antioxidants you may not be getting enough of have an effect on preventing diseases like cancer and the effects of old age. Or worse liver damage well running a liver stressing cycle.

    In addition to NAC Forged liver support has several other powerful antioxidants that have been studied specifically for their beneficial effect on the liver. Milk thistle has been demonstrated in studies to reduce liver inflammation and improve liver function in patients with liver disease. Another antioxidant included is the herb Astragalus, a type of bean that has been used in Chinese medicine for over 2,000 years. Among its many curative properties, the Chinese used this for treating the liver. research in the past decade has focused on its effect on the liver, fighting viral infections, and its role in the treatment of cancer. Interestingly an extract has been shown to prevent the shortening of telomeres, which are the caps on DNA that keep cells young.

    Next up is Phosphatidylcholine, which is another big gun supplement for the liver. This is a great bioactive form of the essential B vitamin Choline. This supplement is a key component of cell membranes as well as the molecules that transport fat out of the liver. High concentrations are found in the brain and liver. As a result it has been used as support in Alzheimer's, depression, and other brain disorders. Deficiency in the diet can lead to liver disease, and supplementation is used for individuals with liver disease or damage. Regulating cholesterol levels in the body is a large function of the liver. So to provide extra support Forged liver support has red yeast rice, which contains chemicals similar to those in cholesterol medications for reducing cholesterol levels in the body.
    exactly. Its been taken care of as always lol... Now as for the use of str8 plan old milk thisle? we now have a theory that its not the best. So think about that when you want to reach for the reach milk thisle all on its own.

    Then again millions of people have been running the forged liver support during all there oral cycles and still loved there results. It only has a minimal amount anyway and I am sure its not having a dramatic effect. add in the receptor up reg caps into the on guard and now its even better.

  7. #7
    Advanced Cyborg Brother imported_Skyling35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Needtogetaas View Post
    exactly. Its been taken care of as always lol... Now as for the use of str8 plan old milk thisle? we now have a theory that its not the best. So think about that when you want to reach for the reach milk thisle all on its own.

    Then again millions of people have been running the forged liver support during all there oral cycles and still loved there results. It only has a minimal amount anyway and I am sure its not having a dramatic effect. add in the receptor up reg caps into the on guard and now its even better.
    Sweet now we just need it:lol:. I cant wait for this stuff. It will cover all my bases.
    My new motto:

    [B][FONT="Arial Black"][SIZE="5"]Bring The ******* [/SIZE][SIZE="7"][COLOR="Red"]PAIN[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

  8. #8
    EVO V.I.P
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    This is what ive been saying for so long now... there is a difference if you run mt on cycle as to running a cycle without, substantial differences in gains.

  9. #9
    Newbie Brother gpowell's Avatar
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    Hey Russian, what's your suggestion for someone starting their first Beastdrol cycle? I'm going to follow your suggestion and take 20mg/day for 3-4 weeks. What exactly would you suggest taking along with it?
    Thanks!!

  10. #10
    Newbie Brother gpowell's Avatar
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    Doing a little more research this morning on liver support during my cycle and ran across a random, but worth mentioning post on Wikipedia. Looks like this dude used to be a pro wrestler and about killed himself with Superdol abuse. I wish we knew what he amount he was taking and if he ever took anything for his liver? Chances are he was drinking a ton and popping pain killers as well (standard on the indy pro wrestling circuit).
    Story here: C.W. Anderson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is the caption I saw, "Anderson was hospitalized in 2005 after a supplement named Superdrol gave him jaundice and caused his liver to stop functioning. He returned to the ring after several months, during which he lost 40 lb (18 kg) in weight."

    Ideas?

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