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Thread: PCT is BULLSHIT! Do This Instead.

  1. #1
    V.I.P. - Author nelson montana's Avatar
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    PCT is BULLSHIT! Do This Instead.

    Yeah, I know -- times have changed. And anyone who's into "old school" bodybuilding is considered "out of touch." But you know what hasn't change much in the last 20 years? The human body. And you know what else hasn't changed? Steroids. They still do what they do.

    We just know more now. But in a way, there's more ignorance than ever. We have more information but we also have more misinformation. And we have too many self appointed experts who spread it.

    All my career in bodybuilding I've been know to question the status quo. I took my knocks, but in the end, I've been proven correct -- from drug comparisons to diet, to aerobics, to longevity to unseen benefits to unseen side effects. I didn't come to those conclusions by cutting and pasting studies. I came to them by QUESTIONING studies. Thinking BEYOND the conclusions. Using logic, experience, observation. It was "controversial" because I was ahead of the curve. But...times have changed.

    Now, instead of being the "upstart", I'm "the old guy!" Out of touch. Stuck in the past. Good in "my day" but my day has come and gone. I get it. I did it to old guys when I was young and most people reading this will have it happen to them in a few years. It's the way of the world.

    Nevertheless, being "up to date" doesn't necessarily mean latching on to whatever is the newest theory or taking the latest drug or using the most modern piece of equipment. It's thinking beyiond that. And it's human nature to stick with one's convictions. Old people do that. So do young people. But if you really seek to learn, convictions need to be abandoned. Sticking to any mindset, be it "the good old way" or "the new and improved " way is, in a way, a form of close mindedness.

    Going with that...allow me to elaborate on a touchy subject. PCT.

    I know , I know. There are those who lke their PCt and think they're well informed and they don't want to hear anything that contradicts it. But stick with me.

    I've always advocated low does short cycles. In a way, it's an "enhanced" method of natural training. It's possible to recover from these cycles,far easier than it is from heavy, long duration cycles but over the years there's become this mistaken belief that once you're shut down, it doesn't matter. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.

    That would be like saying once you break your leg and can't walk it doesn't matter if you break it in 15 places. WRONG. MORE damage is MORE. And heavy dosages cause MORE damage. And the longer you're on the longer you'll remain shut down.

    There is a difference between being suppressed and being shut down. Low does short cycles suppress. High does long cycles SHUT YOU DOWN!

    Which leads us to another myth we're all familiar with -- time on equals time on.

    I always thought that wasn't enough time. And I don't believe it was what most guys do anyway. And of course there was the theory (right here on message boards) that you could "bridge" with SARMS. That's ANOTHER topic where I was proven correct that people fail to acknowledge. Thousand of guys simply destroyed their HPTA doing that.

    I won't touch the subject of how nolvadex is a shit toxic drug or that Clomid is only a temporary solution. That is absolutley true but I'm not in the mood to discuss it so let's just presume that they work great. I'll give that one to you!

    Okay...so you recovered from a 16 week cycle. And then what? You go right back on! How many times do you think you can get away with that and maintain a healthy fully functional HPTA? I'm going to guess that most nobody knows -- because nobody is "off" long enough to test it. But I have news for you. I guarantee that everybody who does a "responsible " PCT is still suppressed. BUt your numbers were good 8 weeks after your PCT? Yeah, well have your blood checked, a year of being natural. They'll suck. Does anybody wait that long? No. Admit it.

    So what's the solution? There are TWO.

    Solution one: Forget the nolva and clomid. The body needs to get off of drugs and operate on its own and the only thing you can do is assist it naturally. That's where supplements come in. That means ultimate nutrition and herbs that assist in hormone production. In that regard, there's nothing better than N2GUARD, BRIDGE and N2GENERATE. And not for 8 week. More like 8 MONTHS. Now that may seem like a "plug" but you have to realize, these products were developed by steroid users FOR steroid users!

    So forget about the time on equalling time off. You need to stay off for monthsand hope you can recover. Continue using the supps the entire time. Sorry. That's the reality of the situation. Anything else is just kidding yourself.

    And..Solution number 2.

    If you've done more than 5 cycles and are over 30, and you're planning on doing more cycles, you're going to have to face a simple fact, you're always going to need HRT.

    This is what i decided to do. I keep a healthy level of Testosterone from TRT. 100 mgs a week. And then, along the way, give it little "bumps. Some weeks I'll go to 200 mgs a week. Then once in a while, for a month, add some Primo. Maybe a little SR9009 cycle. Now and then some Ostarine before a leg workout. In this way you avoid the "up and down" flux of hormones that are too high and too low. And you alway have the insurance of a normal healthy T level.

    This method offers a slower, more stable progress over the long term. And of course, using N2GUARD and BRIDGE and N2 GENERATE can only help. They'll enrich your hormonal system so that it works optimally. I am living prof that this method works. Talk to the guys in their 50's who did the big ass cycles and tried to recover with PCT. Most of them look like shit. Those who are still alive anyway.

    know...this is all completely against the traditional thinking. It's an entirely NEW way of approaching the use of PED's. So...let's see...how many progressive thinkers are there out there? Or are you stuck in the way of the old days?

    This is the wave of the future. Decide for yourself. Are you going to keep following the failed tactics of messing up your hormonal system only to lose all the gains or attempt to cover up the symptoms with toxic drugs? Or are you in for the long haul?

    N2GUARD, BRIDGE and N2GENERATE. If you're a PED user these products are as important as anything else. Maybe more so.

    Get off the rollercoaster of being jack and then deflated and waiting to go back on. Do it the smart way. Or just keep thinking you already have all the answers.

    The choice is yours.
    In that profile pic, I'm 64 years old. On only 100 mgs of TRT a week. Designer and Developer of N2GUARD and BRIDGE. www.needtobuildmuscle.com

  2. #2
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson montana View Post
    Yeah, I know -- times have changed. And anyone who's into "old school" bodybuilding is considered "out of touch." But you know what hasn't change much in the last 20 years? The human body. And you know what else hasn't changed? Steroids. They still do what they do.

    We just know more now. But in a way, there's more ignorance than ever. We have more information but we also have more misinformation. And we have too many self appointed experts who spread it.

    All my career in bodybuilding I've been know to question the status quo. I took my knocks, but in the end, I've been proven correct -- from drug comparisons to diet, to aerobics, to longevity to unseen benefits to unseen side effects. I didn't come to those conclusions by cutting and pasting studies. I came to them by QUESTIONING studies. Thinking BEYOND the conclusions. Using logic, experience, observation. It was "controversial" because I was ahead of the curve. But...times have changed.

    Now, instead of being the "upstart", I'm "the old guy!" Out of touch. Stuck in the past. Good in "my day" but my day has come and gone. I get it. I did it to old guys when I was young and most people reading this will have it happen to them in a few years. It's the way of the world.

    Nevertheless, being "up to date" doesn't necessarily mean latching on to whatever is the newest theory or taking the latest drug or using the most modern piece of equipment. It's thinking beyiond that. And it's human nature to stick with one's convictions. Old people do that. So do young people. But if you really seek to learn, convictions need to be abandoned. Sticking to any mindset, be it "the good old way" or "the new and improved " way is, in a way, a form of close mindedness.

    Going with that...allow me to elaborate on a touchy subject. PCT.

    I know , I know. There are those who lke their PCt and think they're well informed and they don't want to hear anything that contradicts it. But stick with me.

    I've always advocated low does short cycles. In a way, it's an "enhanced" method of natural training. It's possible to recover from these cycles,far easier than it is from heavy, long duration cycles but over the years there's become this mistaken belief that once you're shut down, it doesn't matter. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.

    That would be like saying once you break your leg and can't walk it doesn't matter if you break it in 15 places. WRONG. MORE damage is MORE. And heavy dosages cause MORE damage. And the longer you're on the longer you'll remain shut down.

    There is a difference between being suppressed and being shut down. Low does short cycles suppress. High does long cycles SHUT YOU DOWN!

    Which leads us to another myth we're all familiar with -- time on equals time on.

    I always thought that wasn't enough time. And I don't believe it was what most guys do anyway. And of course there was the theory (right here on message boards) that you could "bridge" with SARMS. That's ANOTHER topic where I was proven correct that people fail to acknowledge. Thousand of guys simply destroyed their HPTA doing that.

    I won't touch the subject of how nolvadex is a shit toxic drug or that Clomid is only a temporary solution. That is absolutley true but I'm not in the mood to discuss it so let's just presume that they work great. I'll give that one to you!

    Okay...so you recovered from a 16 week cycle. And then what? You go right back on! How many times do you think you can get away with that and maintain a healthy fully functional HPTA? I'm going to guess that most nobody knows -- because nobody is "off" long enough to test it. But I have news for you. I guarantee that everybody who does a "responsible " PCT is still suppressed. BUt your numbers were good 8 weeks after your PCT? Yeah, well have your blood checked, a year of being natural. They'll suck. Does anybody wait that long? No. Admit it.

    So what's the solution? There are TWO.

    Solution one: Forget the nolva and clomid. The body needs to get off of drugs and operate on its own and the only thing you can do is assist it naturally. That's where supplements come in. That means ultimate nutrition and herbs that assist in hormone production. In that regard, there's nothing better than N2GUARD, BRIDGE and N2GENERATE. And not for 8 week. More like 8 MONTHS. Now that may seem like a "plug" but you have to realize, these products were developed by steroid users FOR steroid users!

    So forget about the time on equalling time off. You need to stay off for monthsand hope you can recover. Continue using the supps the entire time. Sorry. That's the reality of the situation. Anything else is just kidding yourself.

    And..Solution number 2.

    If you've done more than 5 cycles and are over 30, and you're planning on doing more cycles, you're going to have to face a simple fact, you're always going to need HRT.

    This is what i decided to do. I keep a healthy level of Testosterone from TRT. 100 mgs a week. And then, along the way, give it little "bumps. Some weeks I'll go to 200 mgs a week. Then once in a while, for a month, add some Primo. Maybe a little SR9009 cycle. Now and then some Ostarine before a leg workout. In this way you avoid the "up and down" flux of hormones that are too high and too low. And you alway have the insurance of a normal healthy T level.

    This method offers a slower, more stable progress over the long term. And of course, using N2GUARD and BRIDGE and N2 GENERATE can only help. They'll enrich your hormonal system so that it works optimally. I am living prof that this method works. Talk to the guys in their 50's who did the big ass cycles and tried to recover with PCT. Most of them look like shit. Those who are still alive anyway.

    know...this is all completely against the traditional thinking. It's an entirely NEW way of approaching the use of PED's. So...let's see...how many progressive thinkers are there out there? Or are you stuck in the way of the old days?

    This is the wave of the future. Decide for yourself. Are you going to keep following the failed tactics of messing up your hormonal system only to lose all the gains or attempt to cover up the symptoms with toxic drugs? Or are you in for the long haul?

    N2GUARD, BRIDGE and N2GENERATE. If you're a PED user these products are as important as anything else. Maybe more so.

    Get off the rollercoaster of being jack and then deflated and waiting to go back on. Do it the smart way. Or just keep thinking you already have all the answers.

    The choice is yours.
    Urgh... not that again?

    I'm sick and fkin tired of seeing this single line. It's exactly that which encourages the very behavior your talking about helping with. The staying on, the large cycles and so on. And unless you're absolutely maxed out it's B FKIN S.

    I'll start with nixing one of Nelson's thoughts: the average user of AAS is not his age or mine. If you are you're probably gonna be doing what he does - some sort of HRT/TRT. In which case you are suppressed or shutdown. FOR FKIN EVER. 99.99% of 50+ users aren't worried about sperm count and having kids. And if you're doing HRT/TRT you're on for LIFE.

    No. The average user age range is younger than they out to be (under 25) to about 35. And, whether you like it or not, NOT MAXED OUT. It's a given you're not doing EVERYTHING you could to be as big or as strong (whatever you want from PEDs) you could be doing. Even if you do are you doing it ALL the time? Probably not. So of course you lose your gains.

    It's a TRUTH, whether you like it or not, that you will not, once you get there (if it's your thing) keep on benching 500lbs for ever. Not gonna happen. No matter what you do. You're not gonna stay 250lbs and lean all the damn time. You'll be leaner in the summer and less so in the winter. Deal with it. Own that sh*t.

    No. In our average user / typical trainee and as I've addressed MULTIPLE FKIN TIMES they rarely adjust to the new set point. You can read up on so-called set point theory elsewhere. In simple terms let's say you started out at 160lbs

    Cycle 1: add 10 on. Keep 5lbs. Now weighs 165. Adjusts training and calories to keep at 165

    Cycle 2. Starts at 165. Adds 6. Keeps 3. Now 168lbs. Adjusts again. Stays at 168lbs.

    Over time X eventually drags their butt all the way to 190lbs. That's a 30lb jump which they can keep.

    But too many don't. They don't adjust. If, when you were 160lbs, your bench for reps was 220lbs at 190lbs it NEEDS to be 270lbs (as an example). Why would you expect your body to hold muscle if you're not feeding it what it needs to be 190 with? Or stimulating it with training to hold that muscle?

    I'll hold myself up against Nelson as a comparison. I'm heavier and even with my bodyfat levels (I don't currently want to be as lean as he does) and have bigger stronger muscles because

    1) I want to be stronger.
    2) I'm taller
    3) Genetics. We're different. Get over it.

    However, in spite of the 7 year gap (57 vs 64 as we type our replies out), we're older than most members here. Why is Nelson leaner than most 64 year olds? Cos of his HRT but also cos he works out and eats right. Why am I stronger/bigger than most gym users - cos, like Nelson, I've been training to be that way a LONG ASS TIME. Longer than most members have been alive (42 years in the gym). If, after that much time, I wasn't fkin bigger and fkin stronger than most I need a new fkin hobby. Back when I still trained at home, aged 16-17, my best one rep max on the bench was 90-kilos/198lbs. That's now a warm up. Unless I die between now and then I'll be benching that when I'm Nelson's age - for reps. Ergo I'll hold that strength and the muscle to do it. If I eat for what I weigh then, allowing for natural age related loss, I'll hold most of my size.

    All of that and those 'rules' apply if you're 30.

    Now one issue might be having a specific number in mind. Let's say 200lbs. That's kinda big if you're average height and lean. Your body and it's response to PEDs will change no matter what (inc PEDs) as you age. You need to adjust to meet the demands required to stay at 200lbs and lean. Your diet will need to become more on point. Your training adjusted to compensate and those small dosages will need tweaking. It's why you'll almost never see the exact same cycle, calories or weights suggested for ever user. Even if you know them it'll change from time to time as they age and so on.

    Those adjustments are as much a given as is the 'NEED' to cycle longer, harder etc and ditto the adjustments to PCT. The idea that you need to stay on, mega dose or that EVERYONE is gonna be on HRT is just plain wrong. And it's more wrong if you're missing out on the other tweaks. There's a ton of on-line calculators which can adjust these numbers - training, calories and macros - you've no excuses. Don't fix it with more PEDs and bridging either with AAS or Sarms. Fix it with these tweaks first.

  3. #3
    V.I.P. - Author nelson montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    Urgh... not that again?

    I'm sick and fkin tired of seeing this single line. It's exactly that which encourages the very behavior your talking about helping with. The staying on, the large cycles and so on. And unless you're absolutely maxed out it's B FKIN S.

    I'll start with nixing one of Nelson's thoughts: the average user of AAS is not his age or mine. If you are you're probably gonna be doing what he does - some sort of HRT/TRT. In which case you are suppressed or shutdown. FOR FKIN EVER. 99.99% of 50+ users aren't worried about sperm count and having kids. And if you're doing HRT/TRT you're on for LIFE.

    No. The average user age range is younger than they out to be (under 25) to about 35. And, whether you like it or not, NOT MAXED OUT. It's a given you're not doing EVERYTHING you could to be as big or as strong (whatever you want from PEDs) you could be doing. Even if you do are you doing it ALL the time? Probably not. So of course you lose your gains.

    It's a TRUTH, whether you like it or not, that you will not, once you get there (if it's your thing) keep on benching 500lbs for ever. Not gonna happen. No matter what you do. You're not gonna stay 250lbs and lean all the damn time. You'll be leaner in the summer and less so in the winter. Deal with it. Own that sh*t.

    No. In our average user / typical trainee and as I've addressed MULTIPLE FKIN TIMES they rarely adjust to the new set point. You can read up on so-called set point theory elsewhere. In simple terms let's say you started out at 160lbs

    Cycle 1: add 10 on. Keep 5lbs. Now weighs 165. Adjusts training and calories to keep at 165

    Cycle 2. Starts at 165. Adds 6. Keeps 3. Now 168lbs. Adjusts again. Stays at 168lbs.

    Over time X eventually drags their butt all the way to 190lbs. That's a 30lb jump which they can keep.

    But too many don't. They don't adjust. If, when you were 160lbs, your bench for reps was 220lbs at 190lbs it NEEDS to be 270lbs (as an example). Why would you expect your body to hold muscle if you're not feeding it what it needs to be 190 with? Or stimulating it with training to hold that muscle?

    I'll hold myself up against Nelson as a comparison. I'm heavier and even with my bodyfat levels (I don't currently want to be as lean as he does) and have bigger stronger muscles because

    1) I want to be stronger.
    2) I'm taller
    3) Genetics. We're different. Get over it.

    However, in spite of the 7 year gap (57 vs 64 as we type our replies out), we're older than most members here. Why is Nelson leaner than most 64 year olds? Cos of his HRT but also cos he works out and eats right. Why am I stronger/bigger than most gym users - cos, like Nelson, I've been training to be that way a LONG ASS TIME. Longer than most members have been alive (42 years in the gym). If, after that much time, I wasn't fkin bigger and fkin stronger than most I need a new fkin hobby. Back when I still trained at home, aged 16-17, my best one rep max on the bench was 90-kilos/198lbs. That's now a warm up. Unless I die between now and then I'll be benching that when I'm Nelson's age - for reps. Ergo I'll hold that strength and the muscle to do it. If I eat for what I weigh then, allowing for natural age related loss, I'll hold most of my size.

    All of that and those 'rules' apply if you're 30.

    Now one issue might be having a specific number in mind. Let's say 200lbs. That's kinda big if you're average height and lean. Your body and it's response to PEDs will change no matter what (inc PEDs) as you age. You need to adjust to meet the demands required to stay at 200lbs and lean. Your diet will need to become more on point. Your training adjusted to compensate and those small dosages will need tweaking. It's why you'll almost never see the exact same cycle, calories or weights suggested for ever user. Even if you know them it'll change from time to time as they age and so on.

    Those adjustments are as much a given as is the 'NEED' to cycle longer, harder etc and ditto the adjustments to PCT. The idea that you need to stay on, mega dose or that EVERYONE is gonna be on HRT is just plain wrong. And it's more wrong if you're missing out on the other tweaks. There's a ton of on-line calculators which can adjust these numbers - training, calories and macros - you've no excuses. Don't fix it with more PEDs and bridging either with AAS or Sarms. Fix it with these tweaks first.
    So you're agreeing with me! But I wasn't expecting everyone to do what we do -- I was making the point that after a while, if you cycle enough, you're going to need HRT. It isn't the normal HRT that older guys take. It's HRT because you can no longer produce your own testosterone.
    In that profile pic, I'm 64 years old. On only 100 mgs of TRT a week. Designer and Developer of N2GUARD and BRIDGE. www.needtobuildmuscle.com

  4. #4
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson montana View Post
    So you're agreeing with me! But I wasn't expecting everyone to do what we do -- I was making the point that after a while, if you cycle enough, you're going to need HRT. It isn't the normal HRT that older guys take. It's HRT because you can no longer produce your own testosterone.
    For the most part. Except I'm not on HRT/TRT and I haven't 'lost all my gains'.

  5. #5
    V.I.P. - Author nelson montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    For the most part. Except I'm not on HRT/TRT and I haven't 'lost all my gains'.
    I didn't say you would. But I imagine it's because you kept cycles moderate in both dosage and duration and took enough time off. Most guys don't. Then again, do you know your natural testosterone level? If it's under 500, you might be better off on HRT.
    In that profile pic, I'm 64 years old. On only 100 mgs of TRT a week. Designer and Developer of N2GUARD and BRIDGE. www.needtobuildmuscle.com

  6. #6
    EVO V.I.P. Eddie Haskell's Avatar
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    I think PCT is not bullshit but you do make good points.

    I try to recommend guys do less PCT drugs and more natty.

    Like drop the clomid and only do:
    Nolvadex
    N2generate es
    Bridge
    N2Guard

    Some guys throw in clomid but I dont like the sides.

  7. #7
    V.I.P. ceo's Avatar
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    nelson pct is not bullshit
    needed

  8. #8
    Official Representative (VIP) Vadim Fedorov's Avatar
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    Important article, interesting points

  9. #9
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson montana View Post
    I didn't say you would. But I imagine it's because you kept cycles moderate in both dosage and duration and took enough time off. Most guys don't. Then again, do you know your natural testosterone level? If it's under 500, you might be better off on HRT.
    You did. Here's the line: only to lose all the gains

    As for my levels. Read my log - does it seem like mine are low?

  10. #10
    V.I.P. - Author nelson montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    You did. Here's the line: only to lose all the gains

    As for my levels. Read my log - does it seem like mine are low?
    That wasn't directed at you. Re-read it. I was referring to guys who do big cycles, gain 30 pounds, and then go off of everything. They tend to lose it all over time. And I'm not accusing you of having low T levels. I was just asking. Anyone over 45 can experience low T, even someone who never touched steroids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ceo View Post
    nelson pct is not bullshit
    needed

    I think you missed the point bro. Did you read the article or just the title?
    In that profile pic, I'm 64 years old. On only 100 mgs of TRT a week. Designer and Developer of N2GUARD and BRIDGE. www.needtobuildmuscle.com

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