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Thread: Why Cialis for Pump Enhancement? Why not Viagra or another PDE5 Inhibitor?

  1. #1
    VIP Stugatz's Avatar
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    Why Cialis for Pump Enhancement? Why not Viagra or another PDE5 Inhibitor?



    I'll put this in complete layman's terms...or try to at least.


    We're all familiar with PDE5 inhibitors. They are most commonly used for erectile disfunction. The big names are Viagra (sildenafil), Cialis (tadalafil), Levitra (vardenafil), and Stendra (avanafil).


    The way they work is by blocking the effects of PDE5 (Phosphodiesterase-5). PDE5 is an enzyme that prevents NO (Nitric Oxide) from causing a necessary chemical reaction needed to relax the muscles surrounding the blood vessels in the penis. When PDE5 is blocked, NO is able to complete the chemical reaction resulting in a chemical called cGMP (cyclic guanosine monophosphate). cGMP is responsible for relaxing the muscles surrounding the blood vessels allowing the vessels to dilate and allow more blood flow.


    Now...why is Cialis the best choice when it comes to muscle pumps and blood pressure regulation? Well, this is due to selectivity. PDE5 is just one member of the Phosphodiesterase family. There are 11 in total and they are names PDE1, PDE2, PDE3.....up to PDE11. PDE5 inhibitors like Cialis and such are designed to be selective in that they "mostly" only target PDE5 and tend to leave the other Phosphodiesterases alone or have minimal interaction. PDE5 is associated with the smooth muscles in your body, such as the corpus cavernosum muscle in the penis which is what inflates with blood during an erection...not to be confused with skeletal muscle. However, Cialis (tadalafil) is the LEAST selective when it comes to PDE11 interaction. This means Cialis also inhibits PDE11 to a degree whereas the other 3 PDE5 inhibitors are highly selective AGAINST PDE11 and basically leave it alone. See chart below showing each PDE5 inhibitor and it's selectivity:





    Why is this important? Well, PDE11 is a specific Phosphodiesterase that is highly present in skeletal muscle. Much more so than any other Phosphodiesterase. Because Cialis is NOT highly selective against PDE11, it will interact with it and block it's effects. This allows the blood vessels in your skeletal muscles to dilate and allow more blood flow, thus enhancing your pump and slightly lowering overall blood pressure. None of the other PDE5 inhibitors interact with PDE11 like Cialis does.


    Therefore, anyone who tells you they took a Viagra before training and it works just as good as Cialis for muscle pumps....they are mistaken. On paper and in theory, Viagra should have virtually no effect on skeletal muscle blood flow.


    References:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3776492/
    Last edited by Stugatz; 09-23-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  2. #2
    EVO V.I.P.
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    I have use both and i can tell viagra does nothing for me on pump and as sex enhancer just works for couple hours , maybe because of short action . Instead cialis is a miricle drug with just one per week put my sex drive to the root even using deca and trenbolone and anadro, same cycle . Love it

  3. #3
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    No one needs any of these. Not a one other than for what they were created for (and indeed the original research).

    I'll say this and you can debate with me to prove me wrong: enhancing the pump does NOT mean bigger and better muscles. It just feels good. I'd go so far as to argue that the hardest to do kind of training which is the best for making you grow does NOT feel nice.

    This is like making everything taste sweet all the damn time.

    Rant over

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  4. #4
    VIP Stugatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    No one needs any of these. Not a one other than for what they were created for (and indeed the original research).

    I'll say this and you can debate with me to prove me wrong: enhancing the pump does NOT mean bigger and better muscles. It just feels good. I'd go so far as to argue that the hardest to do kind of training which is the best for making you grow does NOT feel nice.

    This is like making everything taste sweet all the damn time.

    Rant over
    I will take you up on that offer and argue this:

    Enhancing the pump DOES positively affect muscle growth for at least 2 reasons that I know of:

    1.) Increased pump = increased stretching and tearing of the muscle fascia, which is the whole point of hypertrophy training.
    2.) Increased pump = increased blood flow to the muscles = more/better shuttling of nutrients into the muscles for growth and repair.

    Now, how MUCH of an effect does this have on muscle growth? That I am not sure.

  5. #5
    Growing Moderator Masonic Bodybuilder's Avatar
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    Cialis also has positive health effects regarding the heart. This can be a great thing to take for guys on TRT too.
    ***Canadians, hit me up on Wickr Mobile (MasonicBB) for my steroid source***




  6. #6
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stugatz View Post
    I will take you up on that offer and argue this:

    Enhancing the pump DOES positively affect muscle growth for at least 2 reasons that I know of:

    1.) Increased pump = increased stretching and tearing of the muscle fascia, which is the whole point of hypertrophy training.
    2.) Increased pump = increased blood flow to the muscles = more/better shuttling of nutrients into the muscles for growth and repair.

    Now, how MUCH of an effect does this have on muscle growth? That I am not sure.
    None. While you put up two good points neither force the muscle fibres to thicken and strengthen.

    Now I've read some of what you have. One view is that some are limited in their ability to grow by the fascia. You do want stretching but not tearing (makes for scar tissue and causes adhesion's which then require breaking down (via stuff like deep tissue massage = more pain lol)). It was a big thing, along with stretching, of John Parillo's

    The pump wont cause any more nutrients to get to the muscle than usual. It doesn't cause greater uptake etc else those with zero pump or any action of the blood to the smaller blood vessels would have medical issues. Nice idea in principle but not in practice. If it did you'd still need the requirement for the additional nutrients - caused not by the pump but by the muscle fibre breakdown / requirement to thicken. At best, and something else I've commented on, is the 'post workout' drink approach. I've said that this is a very small gain which requires you to do something like a PWO drink for a LONG time (years). You'll see, maybe, a small difference compared to the Joe that didn't do it with everything else being equal. And too many reading wont play the long game enough to see an effect (hence the usual advice of FOOD).

    Even the whole 'volume' approach to training (which can be one way to get a hell of a pump) is still having an effect on muscle fibres.

    I've suggested before that body can and does adapt to a great deal we can throw at it. It can increase the bodies ability to 'pump' (hence why some can seem to blow up when they 'pump' the muscles and literally why it increases the muscle size temporarily. But it is only a short term form of growth (minutes and hours). So you become better at getting a pump.

    But permanent growth or adaption is what we want. Cell splitting (rare) causing an increase in fibre numbers and then thickening and or strengthening would be the ideal. As would being able to change a higher percentage of our favored muscle fibre type.

    So is a pump useful? Sure. But bigger (more than a few hours) and better (so stronger, faster etc) muscles? No. Train for those first. One way, something even I'll do from time to time (and without using supps or specific drugs for it) is do my work sets (in my case as low as multiple singles but usually 4-12 reps (did 15's today for bi's - worked to 86lbs x 15 on the hammer curls today) and then throw in a pump set. That has a two fold effect. One is the pump lol and the other is removal of lactic acid and waste by-products. Kinda speeding up recovery. We've done it, as per my log, the last two heavy bench days. Last week I worked to 167.5kg/370lbs and then did 60kg/132lbs x 30 reps
    Last edited by Mobster; 09-24-2020 at 04:02 PM.

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  7. #7
    EVO V.I.P.
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    Mpbster is right because i always grow bigger on heavy weights and low reps 6 to 10, and this kind workout dont give pump. Pump is a pleasure and great to take picture .

  8. #8
    EVO V.I.P. Tazz's Avatar
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    that was a great read thanks man

  9. #9
    EVO V.I.P.
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    People talk about this new training techniques but even today you see top pros 4 weeks before contest doing 5 plates squats, 4 plates chest bench press and reps as normal from 6 to 12 . To get dense body you need weights

  10. #10
    Aussie VIP harrywho's Avatar
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    Cialis is suppose to help prostate as well yeh?!
    Stuff makes me feel light headed and shit for days.
    Viagra is the go for me.

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