hCG during a cycle with oral steroids only

[GoldenPlague]

I'm still exploring various combinations... I heard that using oral steroids only, such as turinabol, is not a good idea, because they don't add testosterone and suppress natural testosterone production, meaning there won't be testosterone to convert to estrogen, which will lead to low estrogen, osteoporosis, dead libido, etc...

If I use anavar or turinabol, my natural testosterone production will stop, but no testosterone will be externally added as it happens when synthetic testosterone is used.

In this case, hCG is, I guess, the only way to prevent the collapse of testosterone production, right?

Again, I'm asking what to do during the cycle, not after that. So, hCG during the cycle will prevent testicular atrophy and the testicles will produce testosterone in natural and average quantities, meaning T production won't be stopped, and there will be enough T to prevent hormonal imbalance but not enough T to cause too much aromatization and gynecomastia.

If hCG is used during a steroid cycle that doesn't add externally testosterone, meaning there won't be elevated estrogen levels due to aromatization but just the natural or average levels due to hCG boost, will PCT still be needed after such cycle?

 

[Mobster]

I'm still exploring various combinations... I heard that using oral steroids only, such as turinabol, is not a good idea, because they don't add testosterone and suppress natural testosterone production, meaning there won't be testosterone to convert to estrogen, which will lead to low estrogen, osteoporosis, dead libido, etc...

If I use anavar or turinabol, my natural testosterone production will stop, but no testosterone will be externally added as it happens when synthetic testosterone is used.

In this case, hCG is, I guess, the only way to prevent the collapse of testosterone production, right?

Again, I'm asking what to do during the cycle, not after that. So, hCG during the cycle will prevent testicular atrophy and the testicles will produce testosterone in natural and average quantities, meaning T production won't be stopped, and there will be enough T to prevent hormonal imbalance but not enough T to cause too much aromatization and gynecomastia.

If hCG is used during a steroid cycle that doesn't add externally testosterone, meaning there won't be elevated estrogen levels due to aromatization but just the natural or average levels due to hCG boost, will PCT still be needed after such cycle?

You know this is wrong and have been told so in other threads.

 

[s.gentz]

I heard that using oral steroids only, such as turinabol, is not a good idea, because they don't add testosterone and suppress natural testosterone production, meaning there won't be testosterone to convert to estrogen, which will lead to low estrogen, osteoporosis, dead libido, etc...

Your not gonna be on long enough to kill your estrogen. This is not true.

If I use anavar or turinabol, my natural testosterone production will stop, but no testosterone will be externally added as it happens when synthetic testosterone is used.

You will most likely be suppressed, not completely shut down. Remember, oral only cycles are only going to be a few weeks long. You have zero to worry about with low estrogen sides.
And read above, again for the 10th time and @Mobster comments.

If hCG is used during a steroid cycle that doesn't add externally testosterone, meaning there won't be elevated estrogen levels due to aromatization but just the natural or average levels due to hCG boost, will PCT still be needed after such cycle?

I don't know enough about HCG to comment on this.

 

[Mobster]

I've argued the oral 'few weeks' thing multiple times. It's BroScience. Dylan says 3-4 weeks. I say 8. A few is 3-4.

The only real argument is a SLIGHTLY great stress on the body than injectables.

GP's concerns about osteoporosis is not worthy of consideration.

 

[GoldenPlague]

You know this is wrong and have been told so in other threads.

No, I don't know if it's wrong or not. What I said is an educated guess based on what other people tell me on steroids-related online forums.

They tell me turinabol suppresses testosterone but doesn't cause gynecomastia. The ONLY logical conclusion I can make out of this statement is that turinabol suppresses testosterone but doesn't add testosterone on its own to the body, which is why it doesn't cause gynecomastia. Because if it adds testosterone, there will be aromatization and gynecomastia.

When someone tells me a steroid doesn't aromatize and doesn't cause gynecomastia, even if no estrogen inhibitors are used, what I suppose is that this steroid doesn't add testosterone to the body but suppresses natural T production.

 

[GoldenPlague]

You will most likely be suppressed, not completely shut down. Remember, oral only cycles are only going to be a few weeks long. You have zero to worry about with low estrogen sides.
And read above, again for the 10th time and @Mobster comments.

So, my natural T production will be still ongoing during a turinabol-only cycle? If that's the case, wouldn't that mean turinabol doesn't add externally testosterone to the body, which is why the body doesn't shut down natural T - because it doesn't detect externally added additional T quantities?

My concern isn't low T, I'm going TRT for life anyway. My concern is elevated estrogen. I'm afraid of gynecomastia, which is why I prefer steroids that don't aromatize.

As for turinabol, if it suppresses natural T production without eternally adding T, this will make the T level in the body too low for aromatization to produce adequate amounts of estrogen. Low estrogen is bad thing.

 

[s.gentz]

So, my natural T production will be still ongoing during a turinabol-only cycle? If that's the case, wouldn't that mean turinabol doesn't add externally testosterone to the body, which is why the body doesn't shut down natural T - because it doesn't detect externally added additional T quantities?

My concern isn't low T, I'm going TRT for life anyway. My concern is elevated estrogen. I'm afraid of gynecomastia, which is why I prefer steroids that don't aromatize.

As for turinabol, if it suppresses natural T production without eternally adding T, this will make the T level in the body too low for aromatization to produce adequate amounts of estrogen. Low estrogen is bad thing.

You won’t have any issues with estrogen on turnibol.
What you are not getting is that turnibol and other dht derivatives while they are test dirivitives and do simalar things in the body their chemical structure is different so they act differently within the body.
You are thinking way too much into this. You def have some mental shit going on.
You have been givin all the answers to your questions but you continue to ask the same question in a different way.
Either listen or stop crating more topics. Your are starting to look more like a troll.
People are taking time out of their day to help you. Take it.

 

[Mobster]

Start with what is KNOWN vs what you think and worry about. When you're patently wrong take it on board. You called a thought a guess. It's not an educated guess. In fact it's worse it's just you feeding into your apparent fear of gyno. Ironically if, by some miracle, you get even half way to your aspirations the chances are higher of gyno than they are now.

Now what is known about Turinabol - we've done podcast on it but very simply it was great for athletic power. No good for marathon runners but more for shot putters, javelin and the like. The issue being that previously the East had been offering a state sponsored PED program and damn the side effects so long at they got Gold medals. The media and then the IOC as was went kinda crazy when women arrived looking like men and the men were giants. So bad was it (I'm just about old enough) that newspaper headlines were all about needing to verify the sex organs.

So TBol was created (complete with a Stazi moniker). Some muscle added but no great bloat or side effects and not as much (dose dependent as always) man looking women.

Now, as I explained just a few days ago, how does increase power and keep you lean and even have (as I've said multiple times) testosterone in it's chemical name if, as you think/guess 'it doesn't add testosterone. Saying others have said X so you believe X (if you did you wouldn't have asked again) doesn't make X so.

Now ALL steroids are arguable 'designed' to elecit different effects. Else there'd be one. They were, with the exception of a couple, created to treat medical conditions. There are, just of the anabolic kind, over a 100 I think. Some were so close to others which did a better job they were dropped or discarded. One was so toxic no one has ever used it (plus you can't find it to buy) for a PED purpose (and it added pissy amounts of muscle etc). Another (one of the 1st) had such a short half life that you'd have to inject it multiple times a day.

Even SGents, fine fella that he is, is wrong with his 'you wont be on orals long so suppression vs shutdown' point. He is, as I said elsewhere parroting the thought that 'orals should only be run for 3-4 weeks'. That's, at best, an opinion. It's one of Dylan Gemelis too. Now I agree that the risk factors are elevated over most (but not all) injectables and I'd also agree that I could never see myself doing a 12 or even 16 week oral cycle. But the idea that 3-4 weeks is merely suppressive vs able to shut you down is just that - an idea. Look at how both ignore the crazy success most users get from their first AAS cycle with the ever popular and still high selling DBol.

Now, as we have also explained many times on both the forum and podcasts any such 'theories' ignore (almost cos we have to or else we'll be here all day FFS lol) a bunch of stuff. Example below:

Let's take Joe. Joe asks about X, Y and Z. Joe 'forgets' to mention he's 12 and not 25.
His bro Bob asks about X, Y and Z but neglects to mention his 40% bodyfat.
Their pal Sam is lean all the time, with a mesa-morphic build.

Does the same cycle, dose, length etc have the same effects, sides or results? Of course not. And those parameters are just a few. What if all three train poorly and eat crap. Sam will still look better. Will their experience cloud the info they give you? Of course. What if, as below, all three have different aims? Now that's often (inc with me from time to time - hence why if I haven't used a PED I'll ask Stevesmi and vice versa on podcasts) why someone will reply a certain way. Example: Halotest works very well many powerlifters. It IS a harsh oral (one of the few I'd agree with the 4 week theory). I used it. Did nothing for me (maybe I needed a shit load... I'll pass on that thanks as the risk vs reward wasn't for me). So my experience says forget it but I KNOW many that LOVE IT. QED what I know, feel or think

One more and I've used this analogy before. Take a room full of PED experts. What they agree on is probably golden and good to go with. What they disagree on is, IMO, to be avoided. What they've agreed on will be based on millions of users all getting a similar reaction, papers they've read, courses they've been on and so on. There's literally a thread still live where you can read example of the craziest PED usage we've ever heard of. Note we like to read about such craziness vs recommending it. Even one expert (very highly qualified now) used more than 4g a week plus and ended up with liver issues. I asked him what was the best risk v reward and he said 2g a week max.

What about me and SGents? His build looks like mine when I was 18 (I was more builder than lifter then) in his profile pic. What he wants from training and PEDs is not what I want from mine. Our responses to PEDs will differ. I'm older and so on. Ergo our thinking might differ. When I started I spoke to what were the experts of the time here (Mick Hart and Paul Borreson) vs (as I later did of course) getting my info from forums.

Now one HUGE problem here which you're doing and is a part of the age of the internet - is you're looking for info which backs up thinking and fears. See every 'true believer' who thinks the Earth is flat or that Ronald Reagan is a lizard etc. You're ignoring it when the info differs

 

[s.gentz]

What about me and SGents? His build looks like mine when I was 18 (I was more builder than lifter then) in his profile pic

Well written post except for the part when you said I look like an 18 year old!!!

 

[stevesmi]

if you run test on a cycle of tbol you will get more gains obviously

but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a better cycle or it's required

i am actually currently doing tbol only as its the cool time of year where i live and i'm able to do a shit ton of outdoor cardio and i love tbol for this purpose. and i'm still alive and well. had i stacked test with it then i would not reach my desired goals and rather i would be hurting my goals

if you want strength and mass then yes add test. but you will get MORE side effects, not less. if you want to just be lean and put on some small amounts of lean mass and boost endurance then don't include it. as simple as that.

 

[Npcclassicphysique champ]

I'm still exploring various combinations... I heard that using oral steroids only, such as turinabol, is not a good idea, because they don't add testosterone and suppress natural testosterone production, meaning there won't be testosterone to convert to estrogen, which will lead to low estrogen, osteoporosis, dead libido, etc...

If I use anavar or turinabol, my natural testosterone production will stop, but no testosterone will be externally added as it happens when synthetic testosterone is used.

In this case, hCG is, I guess, the only way to prevent the collapse of testosterone production, right?

Again, I'm asking what to do during the cycle, not after that. So, hCG during the cycle will prevent testicular atrophy and the testicles will produce testosterone in natural and average quantities, meaning T production won't be stopped, and there will be enough T to prevent hormonal imbalance but not enough T to cause too much aromatization and gynecomastia.

If hCG is used during a steroid cycle that doesn't add externally testosterone, meaning there won't be elevated estrogen levels due to aromatization but just the natural or average levels due to hCG boost, will PCT still be needed after such cycle?

@GoldenPlague i responded to your earlier thread
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/is-a-t-only-cycle-the-best-way-to-go.96647/post-1436479

my thought stays, instead of going back and forth on clomid hcg and more lets see your log now
i want to guide you as a community from what you doing NOW not in future

 

[GoldenPlague]

if you want strength and mass then yes add test. but you will get MORE side effects, not less. if you want to just be lean and put on some small amounts of lean mass and boost endurance then don't include it. as simple as that.

Yes, I know the results I will get from a turinabol-only cycle won't make me look like a IFBB pro. I know the results of a turinabol-only cycle will be small, but I'm ok with this.

I know what to expect from turinabol and my expectations aren't as high as some people think.

My questions aren't about what results I may get, but about specific side effects I'm concerned about. I'm ok with things like:

1. Sterility
2. TRT for life
3. Baldness
4. Temporarily elevated cholesterol
5. Acne

...but I'm not ok with gynecomastia and side effects associated with low estrogen like osteoporosis and dead libido. Actually, let the libido die temporarily (during the cycle) if that's what usually happen, no problem, but I don't want osteoporosis. Bone deformations are irreversible and terrible things.

Let me explain.

Turinabol is a derivative of testosterone, it's suppresses natural testosterone production, but it does NOT add testosterone in the body. That means if I use turinabol without also using synthetic testosterone, my testosterone levels will be suppressed and there won't be enough T to be turned into estrogen through aromatization. This will lead to low estrogen and associated side effects.

If turinabol doesn't aromatize to estrogen, that means no gynecomastia can occur due to elevated estrogen levels. But I heard elevated E levels aren't the only reason for gynecomastia and turinabol can still cause gynecomastia via other than elevated E levels mechanisms. Is this true?

So in conclusion, as far as I understand it, during a turinabol-only cycle, I won't need to take any estrogen inhibitors because my estrogen levels won't be elevated. If I have to take any drugs at all during a T-bol cycle, it will have to be clomiphene so my natural T production can be stimulated to prevent shut down and low estrogen due to lack of aromatization. Additional drugs during a T-bol cycle are taken in order to prevent low T and low E, not high E.

Did I understand it correctly? Can someone explain?

 

[GoldenPlague]

You won’t have any issues with estrogen on turnibol.
What you are not getting is that turnibol and other dht derivatives while they are test dirivitives and do simalar things in the body their chemical structure is different so they act differently within the body.

I know T-bol is a derivative of testosterone that acts differently in the body.

As for the issues, how do you know I won't have any? Obviously, different people give me different answers to the same question and I don't know what and who to believe...

 

[Mobster]

Well written post except for the part when you said I look like an 18 year old!!!

Everyone does now I'm old lol. I was 175lbs when I was 18 so you're bigger lol

 

[Mobster]

I know T-bol is a derivative of testosterone that acts differently in the body.

As for the issues, how do you know I won't have any? Obviously, different people give me different answers to the same question and I don't know what and who to believe...

Because we know very little about you. And I explained the difference between opinion and fact. Plus you keep asking so you get more info and opinions

 

[Mobster]

Yes, I know the results I will get from a turinabol-only cycle won't make me look like a IFBB pro. I know the results of a turinabol-only cycle will be small, but I'm ok with this.

I know what to expect from turinabol and my expectations aren't as high as some people think.

My questions aren't about what results I may get, but about specific side effects I'm concerned about. I'm ok with things like:

1. Sterility
2. TRT for life
3. Baldness
4. Temporarily elevated cholesterol
5. Acne

...but I'm not ok with gynecomastia and side effects associated with low estrogen like osteoporosis and dead libido. Actually, let the libido die temporarily (during the cycle) if that's what usually happen, no problem, but I don't want osteoporosis. Bone deformations are irreversible and terrible things.

Let me explain.

Turinabol is a derivative of testosterone, it's suppresses natural testosterone production, but it does NOT add testosterone in the body. That means if I use turinabol without also using synthetic testosterone, my testosterone levels will be suppressed and there won't be enough T to be turned into estrogen through aromatization. This will lead to low estrogen and associated side effects.

If turinabol doesn't aromatize to estrogen, that means no gynecomastia can occur due to elevated estrogen levels. But I heard elevated E levels aren't the only reason for gynecomastia and turinabol can still cause gynecomastia via other than elevated E levels mechanisms. Is this true?

So in conclusion, as far as I understand it, during a turinabol-only cycle, I won't need to take any estrogen inhibitors because my estrogen levels won't be elevated. If I have to take any drugs at all during a T-bol cycle, it will have to be clomiphene so my natural T production can be stimulated to prevent shut down and low estrogen due to lack of aromatization. Additional drugs during a T-bol cycle are taken in order to prevent low T and low E, not high E.

Did I understand it correctly? Can someone explain?

but it does NOT add testosterone in the body

Is wrong.

 

[GoldenPlague]

Is wrong.

If turinabol is a non-aromatizing steroid, how does it add testosterone? More testosterone means more aromatization and estrogen. How can turinabol add testosterone without being aromatizing?

 

[Mobster]

Read my reply above about how it was designed (as almost all steroids were). TBol is the ONLY one that was designed for sport specific use. Not by a commercial lab but the whole damn country (viz state sponsored). Even 'The Clear' was only a variation on pre-existing steroids (one or two of the lesser known 100 I referred to).

Think LOGICALLY. How does it add performance enhancement if it does not act in a steroid like manner? It wouldn't need testosterone in it's make up if it was merely their to boost energy. Just use (as many did then) a form of speed. It boosted BOTH muscular speed/explosiveness (a little) and POWER.

It's YOU that's saying ''More testosterone means more aromatization and estrogen''. It's, at best, an over simplification of the 'science'.

Take it from me: not even the full muscle building process is completely understood never mind the simple fact that PED use and understanding of it has yet to be properly studied (ethics stop that). And when ONLY TBol was designed for PED usage when the rest of AAS were not you're not gonna get as much info as you want.

Here's a thing I had a buddy who knew where the chemical bonds were. He'd made a point of which carbon molecule went where. Fat mofo drinking milk etc. And even if he was a muscular mofo instead did knowing the specifics enhance his physique? The only ones who benefit from seeing the little chemical diagrams are the chemists who make steroids

 

[stevesmi]

If turinabol is a non-aromatizing steroid, how does it add testosterone? More testosterone means more aromatization and estrogen. How can turinabol add testosterone without being aromatizing?

if you run 1000mgs of tren and get blood work done for testosteorne it will show your test levels under 50ng/dl. normal range is 300-900ng/dl
it is because that particular bloodwork is searching for testosterone metabolites. it doesn't account for the amount of androgens and male hormones floating in your bloods. if it did then 1000mgs of tren would put your bloodwork at like 8000ng/dl

same with tbol.. if you run a mild dose of 30mgs just cause it won't show up as test doesn't mean you aren't getting male hormones from it.

 

[MONSTRO]

you know you ask a lot of questions how old are you?
why aren't you just putting up a log and then asking questions on that