Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
sarms-forsaleUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsSarms for SaleUGFREAKeudomestic

Veteran Thread How much protein do you need to build muscle? The Protein Confusion

Veteran Discussion
How about with PED use? I would imagine that in extreme cases the body could assimilate twice as much or more? GH and test together probably require much more protein.
No. That still requires digestion and uptake - aka assimilation. Now can AAS use double retention? Not on their own.

Think about it from a medical point of view first. We KNOW many AAS increase nitrogen (protein) retention. But only under extreme circumstances like a full body burn, cancer etc. Very few studies work with athletes and 99% of nutritionists agree with an increase in protein but not to 300+g a day. One study used retired older people. Others medical patients and so on. Even then occasional high use of AAS in those conditions does not include the benefit of more muscle.

The kind of training required to stress the body even close to a burn does not exist and if it did you'd end up in hospital after a session. You certainly wouldn't do it again the next day lol.

The truth is (if I recall well) it's on the order of grams per day. You're not, for example, breaking down pounds of muscle (it may well feel like that as we all know) and yes you need to repair and maintain first (hence the base number) before allowing for growth.

So protein requirements (as well as other macros) only need to be increased on a day by day basis minimally. That's not to say that a lean 200lb bodybuilder needs the same as an average joe. He has more lean mass so needs more protein just to maintain his mass.

I've also said many times that the reason why many lose their gains is they do not tweak their diet to support the new lean mass gains.

Now I agree 1000% that I, for one, need more than an average Joe and even my equal as a strength athlete if they weighed 200lbs vs me at 300+

I'd ask the guys to post what amounts of protein in grams per day they consume typically. You've seen 200-300g bandied about. Yet we all vary in how hard we train, how tall we are, how much muscle we carry and so on. Ergo the 'science' or logic is off. If we use the higher 0.9g per lb how come those using 300g don't weigh 300lbs?? Or, to put it another way, I've even said myself to eat for what you wanna be not who you are. But if I weighed 200 and ate 200g of protein etc and upped that to 250g etc etc I will not quickly hit 250lbs and be as lean as before. And we know, regardless of training or AAS use growth is gradual (and for very good scientific reasons) - esp for those who have been training a while.
 
Bring on the debate lol

I'll start up front by mentioning I have the advantage of having owned a company that's No1 product was Whey Protein. As in I sold one fella a 1000kg/2200lbs pallet in one deal and we'd our smallest tub was 5kg/11lbs. I HAVE consumed as much as 300g of the powder (so 240g protein) every day plus food.

I'm also more aware than most here will be of the history of the Iron Game. I know when PEDs started and when companies like York Barbell and Weider started pushing protein hard. Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo Blair) came up with a high fat (from cream) and isolated milk protein drink which had a LOT of success. But here are the missing bits of info

1) Weider, York and others sold equipment. But you will NOT need to buy a new Olympic set every week. But you WILL consume protein and need (want) to replenish it when it's gone weekly, monthly etc. Hence you started to see companies stop saying that good food was enough and starting to push protein. That came down to the almighty dollar.

2) PEDs. There has ALWAYS been big muscular men. But seriously big and relatively lean was rare. That started to change when PEDs came to the fore. And even then Arnold et al (@ 230lbs) was NOT hitting 300g protein. I've read of Jay Cutler and others hitting 400g and even as high as 800g protein.

3) I come from strength and I'm talking about athletes in the World's Strongest Man competitions kind of level. Which means I've felt TINY at 290lbs and 6'3" tall when i'm standing next to someone that weighs close to 400lbs and are ALL my height or taller. And yes they can eat and DO consume a LOT of calories. But few are hitting as high as you think protein wise.

4) Studies. One does not proof make. I'd also ask who did it (was it sponsored by a protein selling company?). Did it use PED using athletes and so on

5) Why upping the protein CAN work. How often have we pushed a better diet (and a log lol) on those not gaining over or as well as a solid cycle? The underweight especially over estimate what they think they're eating (all macros) . They GUESS. Then when it's written down they're barely hitting 90g protein as day. So when we say 'eat more protein' and they do... well blow me twice they grow.

6) What we actually need. Stevesmi has written (also based on science) that the (and it's the top end of the numbers) athlete (not av Joes) needs circa 0.9g a lb MAX. The data is 0.7 to 1.1g (so the middle is what Stevesmi says). I'd mention I do NOT do a high volume work load (which would require more) and there's SOME support to a higher ratio of protein to carbs and fat when you're dieting. I'll be getting MORE than the 0.7g figure (comes out to 227g for me) on average.

As I said elsewhere it IS, in my opinion, parroting the idea when EVERYONE says 'up the protein'. Esp if it's just because it's what's been said for a long time and, myself included, using outliers like me at 322-334+ or Jay C using 100's of g of protein when he was 290lbs and winning the O as our evidence.

Bring on the debate!!
Steave hit it on the money. 0.7- 1.1 grams per lb of body weight. Only time I would maybe advise going higher and by high I mean 1.25grams per pound is if that person is taking anabolics and has a large amount of muscle but even then you can only take in so much. People that consume 400-800grams of protein…even at an elite level you essentially using some of that as a “high dollar carb” so whatever you’re body doesn’t use for muscle building, uses as energy and the rest you shit out.
 
I get full easy and I hate forcing meals down because it makes me bloated and miserable, I know I under eat on my cut the one thing I do is keep protein higher 3 small meals a day and 2 snacks and I hit 255g of protein a day and I weigh 217lbs at 5'11 I don't like pushing super high protein or calories as that is hard on the body and organs which im already taxing as it is with ped and the way I train. I eat what is comfortable and get better 1900-2186 calories a day I keep carbs 50g and under and fats somewhere in the middle.

I looked my best when my fats actually had been low protein was mid 200s and my carbs at 150g a day when I reached my peak years ago.
 
No. That still requires digestion and uptake - aka assimilation. Now can AAS use double retention? Not on their own.

Think about it from a medical point of view first. We KNOW many AAS increase nitrogen (protein) retention. But only under extreme circumstances like a full body burn, cancer etc. Very few studies work with athletes and 99% of nutritionists agree with an increase in protein but not to 300+g a day. One study used retired older people. Others medical patients and so on. Even then occasional high use of AAS in those conditions does not include the benefit of more muscle.

The kind of training required to stress the body even close to a burn does not exist and if it did you'd end up in hospital after a session. You certainly wouldn't do it again the next day lol.

The truth is (if I recall well) it's on the order of grams per day. You're not, for example, breaking down pounds of muscle (it may well feel like that as we all know) and yes you need to repair and maintain first (hence the base number) before allowing for growth.

So protein requirements (as well as other macros) only need to be increased on a day by day basis minimally. That's not to say that a lean 200lb bodybuilder needs the same as an average joe. He has more lean mass so needs more protein just to maintain his mass.

I've also said many times that the reason why many lose their gains is they do not tweak their diet to support the new lean mass gains.

Now I agree 1000% that I, for one, need more than an average Joe and even my equal as a strength athlete if they weighed 200lbs vs me at 300+

I'd ask the guys to post what amounts of protein in grams per day they consume typically. You've seen 200-300g bandied about. Yet we all vary in how hard we train, how tall we are, how much muscle we carry and so on. Ergo the 'science' or logic is off. If we use the higher 0.9g per lb how come those using 300g don't weigh 300lbs?? Or, to put it another way, I've even said myself to eat for what you wanna be not who you are. But if I weighed 200 and ate 200g of protein etc and upped that to 250g etc etc I will not quickly hit 250lbs and be as lean as before. And we know, regardless of training or AAS use growth is gradual (and for very good scientific reasons) - esp for those who have been training a while.
Forgot to add what grams of protein I eat sorry.

Low days(non training days)
300

Medium days (normal training days)
310 it’s only 10grams higher due to the intra workout shake I do

High carb days 1 day a week right now for legs
240 this is lower due to the fact carbs are so high and are protein sparring
 
The great thing is that we have freedom to create our own diets and since we will all have different requirements (so many different factors effect this), just simply tweak protein amounts up or down if you are not seeing desired results.
 
Back
Top Bottom