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Hi there guys,
Let me start with an up-front apology for this being a long post (or possibly a double post/post in the wrong section; I'm new here), but I just like to be thorough about some things and make sure I don't miss anything, so here goes.
I'm 6' at 210 lbs with approximately 12% body fat and have been bodybuilding for 10+ years. I've recently come across SARMs and have been thinking of running a SARM cycle, given the obvious benefits when compared to an AAS cycle: less suppression/shutdown, fewer side effects, oral administration without liver damage, gains comparable to some AAS cycles (at least within an order of magnitude), etc. I've got a fair share of questions specifically regarding SARMs and PCT, since this is still not quite clear to me; my basic idea is to run LGD-4033 only for eight weeks at 5 mg ED, but then what?
Dosage and duration
I've seen anything from 0.5 mg ED to 10 mg(+) ED. Given my stats and the fact that I'm trying to go for a good ratio between muscle gains/fat loss (recomping), minimal suppression, all while keeping diminishing returns in mind, would 5mg ED be OK, or would 3mg ED work just as well? And what about the duration? I've seen this range from 6 to 12 weeks, with eight weeks being the most common.
Base PCT
I've already seen the myth dispelled that PCT is never needed in case of SARMs, since that only seems to hold for short cycles (four weeks) with SARMs that are practically non-suppressive (or at least significantly less so than LGD-4033), so I would guess a SERM combo like clomid + nolvadex would be a good PCT base. I'm thinking about leaving two weeks in between after the last week of LGD-4033 (week 8), i.e., starting at week 11 (based on http://www.evolutionary.org/the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy-pct/), although I've also seen people advise leaving three weeks in between, i.e., starting PCT at week 12. There's also the issue of taking an additional non-SERM AI like aromasin as part of (or at least to kick-start) PCT (or even as part of OCT); would you deem this necessary/beneficial with respect to an eight-week LGD-4033 cycle?
HCGenerate and N2Guard
I've also seen people advise the use of additional supplements like HCGenerate and/or N2Guard, but I'm somewhat skeptical about herb/mineral/vitamin-based products as far as those being powerful enough to rebalance your HPTA is concerned or as far as the prevention of liver damage/stress is concerned (the latter practically being a non-issue anyway with SARMs, because of their supposed non-hepatotoxicity). Your thoughts?
Ostarine as part of PCT
Then there's the rather frequently heard advise of using ostarine as part of PCT, which kind of baffles me. I might very well be misunderstanding something here, but as I understand it, ostarine has a 3:1 anabolic:androgenic ratio, and although test has a 1:1 ratio, ostarine is still one-third as androgenic as test (at the same anabolic level), meaning that ostarine can actually result in rather mild continuation of suppression instead of reversal. Sure, the suppression might be significantly less than in case of LGD-4033, but (mild) suppression is nevertheless continued for a couple of weeks during PCT, which is not what PCT is about. What am I missing here, or should the whole "ostarine as part of PCT" advice be viewed as bro-sciency at best?
Controversial (?) cardarine
As far as running cardarine as well (and/or running it during PCT) is concerned: I simply don't see myself taking a SARM that is known to cause liver tumours in rats/mice, regardless of the dosage and/or the fact that carcinogenesis in rats/mice does not readily imply carcinogenesis in humans ("PS 895 - Rat carcinogenicity study with GW501516, a PPAR delta agonist" and "PS 896 - Mouse carcinogenicity study with GW501516, a PPAR delta agonist"). This might very well be the reason why GSK abandoned further development of the drug in 2007 (for reasons which were not disclosed at the time). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on cardarine (usage) here, but I simply don't feel comfortable taking that risk.
Need for OCT
As far as on-cycle therapy is concerned, I read that most people do not really deem it necessary to run something during a six to eight week LGD-4033-only cycle. What are your thoughts on that?
Given all of the above, I'm currently thinking of the following and do correct me if I'm wrong - I'm guessing some of you might suggest the need to throw some aromasin in the PCT; but if so, starting when, at what dosage, and for how long?
And then at least the same number of weeks (15) as an off-cycle period before even thinking about running something again.
Sorry for the long post, happy to hear your feedback.
Let me start with an up-front apology for this being a long post (or possibly a double post/post in the wrong section; I'm new here), but I just like to be thorough about some things and make sure I don't miss anything, so here goes.
I'm 6' at 210 lbs with approximately 12% body fat and have been bodybuilding for 10+ years. I've recently come across SARMs and have been thinking of running a SARM cycle, given the obvious benefits when compared to an AAS cycle: less suppression/shutdown, fewer side effects, oral administration without liver damage, gains comparable to some AAS cycles (at least within an order of magnitude), etc. I've got a fair share of questions specifically regarding SARMs and PCT, since this is still not quite clear to me; my basic idea is to run LGD-4033 only for eight weeks at 5 mg ED, but then what?
Dosage and duration
I've seen anything from 0.5 mg ED to 10 mg(+) ED. Given my stats and the fact that I'm trying to go for a good ratio between muscle gains/fat loss (recomping), minimal suppression, all while keeping diminishing returns in mind, would 5mg ED be OK, or would 3mg ED work just as well? And what about the duration? I've seen this range from 6 to 12 weeks, with eight weeks being the most common.
Base PCT
I've already seen the myth dispelled that PCT is never needed in case of SARMs, since that only seems to hold for short cycles (four weeks) with SARMs that are practically non-suppressive (or at least significantly less so than LGD-4033), so I would guess a SERM combo like clomid + nolvadex would be a good PCT base. I'm thinking about leaving two weeks in between after the last week of LGD-4033 (week 8), i.e., starting at week 11 (based on http://www.evolutionary.org/the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy-pct/), although I've also seen people advise leaving three weeks in between, i.e., starting PCT at week 12. There's also the issue of taking an additional non-SERM AI like aromasin as part of (or at least to kick-start) PCT (or even as part of OCT); would you deem this necessary/beneficial with respect to an eight-week LGD-4033 cycle?
HCGenerate and N2Guard
I've also seen people advise the use of additional supplements like HCGenerate and/or N2Guard, but I'm somewhat skeptical about herb/mineral/vitamin-based products as far as those being powerful enough to rebalance your HPTA is concerned or as far as the prevention of liver damage/stress is concerned (the latter practically being a non-issue anyway with SARMs, because of their supposed non-hepatotoxicity). Your thoughts?
Ostarine as part of PCT
Then there's the rather frequently heard advise of using ostarine as part of PCT, which kind of baffles me. I might very well be misunderstanding something here, but as I understand it, ostarine has a 3:1 anabolic:androgenic ratio, and although test has a 1:1 ratio, ostarine is still one-third as androgenic as test (at the same anabolic level), meaning that ostarine can actually result in rather mild continuation of suppression instead of reversal. Sure, the suppression might be significantly less than in case of LGD-4033, but (mild) suppression is nevertheless continued for a couple of weeks during PCT, which is not what PCT is about. What am I missing here, or should the whole "ostarine as part of PCT" advice be viewed as bro-sciency at best?
Controversial (?) cardarine
As far as running cardarine as well (and/or running it during PCT) is concerned: I simply don't see myself taking a SARM that is known to cause liver tumours in rats/mice, regardless of the dosage and/or the fact that carcinogenesis in rats/mice does not readily imply carcinogenesis in humans ("PS 895 - Rat carcinogenicity study with GW501516, a PPAR delta agonist" and "PS 896 - Mouse carcinogenicity study with GW501516, a PPAR delta agonist"). This might very well be the reason why GSK abandoned further development of the drug in 2007 (for reasons which were not disclosed at the time). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on cardarine (usage) here, but I simply don't feel comfortable taking that risk.
Need for OCT
As far as on-cycle therapy is concerned, I read that most people do not really deem it necessary to run something during a six to eight week LGD-4033-only cycle. What are your thoughts on that?
Given all of the above, I'm currently thinking of the following and do correct me if I'm wrong - I'm guessing some of you might suggest the need to throw some aromasin in the PCT; but if so, starting when, at what dosage, and for how long?
- Weeks 1 to 8: 5mg ED LGD-4033
- Weeks 9 and 10: nothing
- Week 11: 50mg ED clomid, 40mg ED nolvadex
- Week 12: 50mg ED clomid, 20mg ED nolvadex
- Week 13: 25mg ED clomid, 20mg ED nolvadex
- Week 14: 25mg ED clomid, 20mg ED nolvadex
And then at least the same number of weeks (15) as an off-cycle period before even thinking about running something again.
Sorry for the long post, happy to hear your feedback.
