Long-term Tamoxifen and IGF-1 levels?

[NFRCR]

An explanation to those who are unawake of Tamoxifen and IGF-1 relation: Tamoxifen does not decrease GH production. However it acts as an estrogen in liver, therefore lowers IGF-1 production. I have verified this with blood tests, it's dose dependent.

Can long term Tamoxifen usage permanently affect IGF-1 production? Even after coming off.

I am asking this because until a while ago I was on Tamoxifen for a long time 10/20mg ED.

 

[jp4355]

This is a little something off of Steroidal on IGF-1 Reduction.
This is Weird, someone just asked me the Exact same Question on another Forum.............................. JP

It is very important to make clear to the reader that the use of Nolvadex can possibly impact performance, muscle,
and strength gains during an anabolic steroid cycle negatively. This is because Nolvadex has been demonstrated to reduce serum levels of IGF-1
(Insulin-like Growth Factor 1) in the body, which is known to be a very important mediator of muscle growth that is responsible for increased nitrogen retention,
protein synthesis, and new muscle cell growth (hyperplasia).
Breast cancer patients in one particular study who were administered Nolvadex dosages of 20 – 30mg per day experienced decreases in plasma
IGF-1 levels by 31% (14.8 nanomolar at the beginning, and 10.2 nanomolar after Nolvadex administration). Furthermore, a future study also
demonstrated significant IGF-1 decreases resultant from Nolvadex use, where this time around Testosterone had been administered alone
without Nolvadex on the test subjects, and IGF-1 levels were observed. Following this, the same procedure was completed with the difference
being the inclusion of Nolvadex. Such a study is much more applicable to anabolic steroid users than studies involving breast cancer patients.
In this study, Testosterone administration alone of only 250mg monthly resulted in a blood plasma IGF-1 increase of 22%,
but when Nolvadex doses of 20mg daily were administered alongside Testosterone, the subjects’ blood plasma IGF-1 levels exhibited a reduction of 30%.
The conclusion here is that Nolvadex does exhibit a detrimental effect on muscle growth through the reduction of blood plasma levels of important
hormones required for muscle growth (such as IGF-1 and Human Growth Hormone). It is therefore advised that the administration of Nolvadex
for whatever reasons (either for PCT or gynecomastia control/reduction) should be only as long as necessary. Short term administration of Nolvadex
doses should not mark a dramatic impact, but long term administration would indeed exhibit negative effects on muscle growth and performance.

P.S.
I should also Note for users of Raloxifene, the Negative Impact on IGF-1 Levels is Actually Greater with long term Usage.

 

[gearhead]

bro i took tamox for a year once (gyno and shit)...never had a problem with growth it seems....all levels tested fine after a year...

 

[NFRCR]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

gearhead, did you notice any strength loss while on Tamoxifen though? I imagine if you're in the middle of the year, you can't make much of a difference. But every time I have raised Tamoxifen dose I have noticed I am not so strong anymore. I don't know about gains, but strength-wise I have noticed this.

 

[stevesmi]

why are you taking it long term to begin with?

 

[dylangemelli]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

gearhead, did you notice any strength loss while on Tamoxifen though? I imagine if you're in the middle of the year, you can't make much of a difference. But every time I have raised Tamoxifen dose I have noticed I am not so strong anymore. I don't know about gains, but strength-wise I have noticed this.

i've seen that often with its use but there are always other underlying factors... jp provided an excellent bit of information for you to confirm what i already knew... tamox is going to hinder your growth long term... it absolutely does what its supposed to and i highly recommend it in certain aspects but definitely not this one

 

[RickRock]

I'm more curious as to why the need to use it long term in the first place? If you have gyno and use the right protocol along with Tamoxifen, gyno should be treated quickly anyways. If not, you'll probably have to have surgery

 

[NFRCR]

why are you taking it long term to begin with?

I am not, but I was. And you could say the reason was both being uneducated on the subject of Tamoxifen and fear as well. Fear? I did a PCT and felt there is no need to come off it, so I was on it for a few months. Then decided to come off. Quit at 20mg/day dose. Well, in my case it did not work very good as the receptors had become ultra-sensitive. Noticed nipple sensitivity after 5 days, also right nipple (I do not mean areola) grew a bit bigger than the left. So this scared the hell of out me and I went back on it and was scared to attempt coming off again. Finally I found that tapering down to 5mg EOD and then stopping works for me.

As of recently right nipple was still looking a little bigger than the left. I mean like 1-2mm in height and width max. It is not really noticable, but I had to try to correct it. I got some kind OCD, that's why it bothered me. So I decided to see if 40mg/day for two weeks and then a slow tapering down would correct it. Now at the end of second week of 40mg. I think it helped a bit. But I will start tapering down starting next week as strength has gone down.

i've seen that often with its use but there are always other underlying factors... jp provided an excellent bit of information for you to confirm what i already knew... tamox is going to hinder your growth long term... it absolutely does what its supposed to and i highly recommend it in certain aspects but definitely not this one

Yeah, that was good information. I hope long-term usage does not permanently affect IGF-1 production. I have not seen my IGF-1 levels totally off Tamoxifen, as I just recently added IGF-1 to the list of my standard blood test. I however have seen dose dependent IGF-1 suppression. Soon I will see how it is totally off it.

 

[NFRCR]

I'm more curious as to why the need to use it long term in the first place? If you have gyno and use the right protocol along with Tamoxifen, gyno should be treated quickly anyways. If not, you'll probably have to have surgery

Never had gyno issues. More of a nipple (not the areola area) issue. Previous post explains.

 

[dylangemelli]

I am not, but I was. And you could say the reason was both being uneducated on the subject of Tamoxifen and fear as well. Fear? I did a PCT and felt there is no need to come off it, so I was on it for a few months. Then decided to come off. Quit at 20mg/day dose. Well, in my case it did not work very good as the receptors had become ultra-sensitive. Noticed nipple sensitivity after 5 days, also right nipple (I do not mean areola) grew a bit bigger than the left. So this scared the hell of out me and I went back on it and was scared to attempt coming off again. Finally I found that tapering down to 5mg EOD and then stopping works for me.

As of recently right nipple was still looking a little bigger than the left. I mean like 1-2mm in height and width max. It is not really noticable, but I had to try to correct it. I got some kind OCD, that's why it bothered me. So I decided to see if 40mg/day for two weeks and then a slow tapering down would correct it. Now at the end of second week of 40mg. I think it helped a bit. But I will start tapering down starting next week as strength has gone down.



Yeah, that was good information. I hope long-term usage does not permanently affect IGF-1 production. I have not seen my IGF-1 levels totally off Tamoxifen, as I just recently added IGF-1 to the list of my standard blood test. I however have seen dose dependent IGF-1 suppression. Soon I will see how it is totally off it.

keep us updated on the results because im quite curious man

 

[NFRCR]

keep us updated on the results because im quite curious man

I sure will keep you updated. And I'll include blood test results as well and comparison to the previous levels. At this moment I am able to compare 10mg/day vs 40mg/day - this resulted in 22% IGF-1 decrease - 228ng/ml vs 178ng/ml respectively. I have also seen my IGF-1 go higher after reducing Tamoxifen dose. So this gives me confidence that IGF-1 levels while totally off Tamoxifen will be even better. 228ng/ml is middle-normal, but high-normal would be nice.

I also believe Tamoxifen greatly nullifies the effect of administering GH or GH secretagogues. For example I have been on 1mg Pramipexole for almost two years. Pramipexole is known to result in higher GH production. I have tried dosing it an hour right before a blood test to see if it bursts IGF-1, but this had no effect. Then again, I am running a prolonged release version of it, might be due to that.

dylan, do you know if I need some specific amount of posts to be able to edit my posts? I would like to have some central topic where I write about my findings as I like to experiment a lot. But I don't want to do that until I am able to edit my posts in case of typos etc.

 

[JackSteel]

I don't fuckin like nolva at all so I can't say but JP laid it out for you man. I'd trash It and use aromasin. Not sure why anyone uses a SERM on cycle anyway.


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[musicboy]

great post bro. thanks for the info.

 

[gearedright]

great post bro. thanks for the info.

Are you just going around to every post and copying and pasting this???? Trying hard to get those numbers up

 

[musicboy]

no not really. I've been reading to info. and then posting to try to get the post count up. but I do appreciate the info on the Nolvadex

 

[musicboy]

trying to read as much as I can and learn as much as i can b/c going to start my first ever cycle or Test and HGH