So I made a decision: I will use primobolan for a first cycle

[GoldenPlague]

Okay, I finally decided what to do. My first cycle will be with primobolan, and it will be a primobolan-only cycle.

I'm planning to use products by Hilma Biocare either bought from Domestic-Supply's eu-domestic.to or Hilma's official re-seller.

I'm now just trying to get help to see if I understand things correctly. Can you, please, read my understanding and tell me if it's correct?

Primobolan doesn't cause aromatization, meaning it can't cause elevated estrogen levels, meaning no estrogen blockers, such as tamoxifen, will be needed during or after the cycle. However, since primobolan doesn't add externally testosterone to the body and suppresses natural testosterone production, this will shut down natural testosterone production and lead to low estrogen.

To prevent this (low estrogen and shut down T production), what should I do? If I use clomiphene during the cycle, will this be enough to prevent testicular atrophy and keep natural T production ongoing, or will I have to use hCG, too? Problem is, I don't want to use hCG, and prefer to go with clomiphene, assuming it can do what I want.

Or, perhaps, I could use a TRT dose during the cycle to keep my testosterone levels within the normal range? If I do this, I don't think I will ever switch back to natural testosterone production.

I don't think I should do a PCT. I don't see any reasons to do a PCT. I think, once I start doing steroids, it will be best to remain on a TRT dose when off-cycle. So when I'm on cycle, I do PED doses, and when I'm off-cycle, I do a TRT dose. What do you think about this?

As for gynecomastia, which is among my primary concern, I don't see how primobolan can cause it.

I looked some information using ChatGPT, and I saw claims that primobolan can cause gynecomastia, which I don't think is true. According to the claims, primobolan can cause gynecomastia, because it reduces testosterone, causing estrogen to become relatively higher. But I don't think that's the case.

When primobolan reduces testosterone, aromatization will also be reduced, leading to reduced estrogen levels as well. So, primobolan lowers estrogen and testosterone. Gynecomastia is caused by estrogen binding to the mammary glands. When I don't use primobolan, my estrogen is normal - 20 to 40 picograms per milliliter. When I use primobolan, testosterone and aromatization will be lowered, meaning estrogen will be lowered below 20 picograms per milliliter. So, if I don't get gynecomastia at a normal estrogen level, why would I get gynecomastia at a below normal estrogen level? This is what I can't understand.

To the best of my knowledge, gynecomastia is caused by elevated estrogen levels, not by low testosterone. So even with low T present, I still can't get gynecomastia if my estrogen isn't elevated. And since aromatization needs T to produce E, E will be automatically reduced when T is reduced due to introduction of primobolan to the body. In other words, a non-aromatizing steroid like primobolan can't cause gynecomastia. Is this correct?

If we assume I will do a TRT dose during the cycle, this means I will have elevated testosterone levels for some time. Currently, as you saw in my blood test results, my testosterone level is at 602 ng/dL. Will this testosterone level become around 1400 (doubled) when I make the first TRT injection, or will natural T production stop the second I inject the TRT dose?

Basically, I'm asking if I already have a normal T level and I inject a TRT dose, will this natural T level be replaced with the synthetic testosterone, or will the synthetic testosterone be put on the top of the 600 ng/dL I already have, leading to a doubled testosterone level of around 1,400 ng/dL, which may lead to high aromatization and gynecomastia?

Here are the products I'm planning to buy:

Tamoxifen - https://eu-domestic.to/nolvadex-tamoxifen-10mg-50tabs

Or this (I'm still not sure): https://eu-domestic.to/tamoxifen-citrate-20mg-50tabs

The primobolan medication (oral form / pills): https://eu-domestic.to/primobolan-acetate-25mg-50tabs

Clomiphene - https://eu-domestic.to/clomiphene-citrate-50mg-50tabs

(By the way, if 25 mg clomiphene is better than 50 mg, I will use a pill cutter. Is 50 mg too high dose?)

Also, can you tell me if the half-life mentioned in the link above is correct? Because I heard the half-life of oral primobolan is around 3 hours, not 9 hours. I have to take one or two pills (depending on the dose) each 3 or 9 hours?

As for the tamoxifen, yes, I know it's nonsense to use tamoxifen during a non-aromatizing steroid cycle, but I will still buy it just in case I get gynecomastia symptoms (it's about fears and paranoia ). Tamoxifen, as far as I know, I a powerful drug. I don't want to completely suppress my estrogen, so should I use a pill cutter to make the pill into a smaller and less potent doses? What do you think about this?

These are my questions for now. If I get more questions, I will ask them in this thread.

So check what I said and how I understand it, and tell me if I'm right or wrong.

Thanks.

 

[s.gentz]

To prevent this (low estrogen and shut down T production), what should I do? If I use clomiphene during the cycle, will this be enough to prevent testicular atrophy and keep natural T production ongoing, or will I have to use hCG, too? Problem is, I don't want to use hCG, and prefer to go with clomiphene, assuming it can do what I want.

You won't use HCG or clomid on cycle. They do not keep natural test production going. Just plump the balls and kinda help with maintaining fertility

Or, perhaps, I could use a TRT dose during the cycle to keep my testosterone levels within the normal range? If I do this, I don't think I will ever switch back to natural testosterone production.

This would be your best option. If you use 2-300 test and primo you should have nothing to worry about as far as gyno. Primo has some AI properties.

I don't think I should do a PCT. I don't see any reasons to do a PCT. I think, once I start doing steroids, it will be best to remain on a TRT dose when off-cycle. So when I'm on cycle, I do PED doses, and when I'm off-cycle, I do a TRT dose. What do you think about this?

That's your choice. PCT is not required after any cycle but it helps to bring your balls back online.

As for gynecomastia, which is among my primary concern, I don't see how primobolan can cause it.

It can't

If we assume I will do a TRT dose during the cycle, this means I will have elevated testosterone levels for some time. Currently, as you saw in my blood test results, my testosterone level is at 602 ng/dL. Will this testosterone level become around 1400 (doubled) when I make the first TRT injection, or will natural T production stop the second I inject the TRT dose?

You will be shut down and only external T will be present. Your T blood numbers will prob be 5-7 times the dose. 200mg/wk would prob put you around 1000-1200ng/dl.

Also, can you tell me if the half-life mentioned in the link above is correct? Because I heard the half-life of oral primobolan is around 3 hours, not 9 hours. I have to take one or two pills (depending on the dose) each 3 or 9 hours?

I believe it's 4-6 hours so you would prob want to take it 3 times per day.

As for the tamoxifen, yes, I know it's nonsense to use tamoxifen during a non-aromatizing steroid cycle, but I will still buy it just in case I get gynecomastia symptoms (it's about fears and paranoia ). Tamoxifen, as far as I know, I a powerful drug. I don't want to completely suppress my estrogen, so should I use a pill cutter to make the pill into a smaller and less potent doses? What do you think about this?

The only time you would use it is if you started to develop gyno and then you would go into anti gyno protocol. I believe 20mg/daily can reverse the gyno if you catch it right away.


To summarize. Take test with your primo
No HCG or Clomid on cycle
Have your tamoxifen on hand but you won't need it.
Have aromison on hand just in case you need it.
Order all of your products from Domestic-Supply or Napsgear

I feel like you are looking to use test cream and oral primo?
Test cream will be hard to control and needs to be applied multiple times per day. Primo dose would be around 500-600mg/wk.
I get that your scared but this cycle is not ideal. Injectable would be much better/easier.

 

[s.gentz]

That is gonna be my last interaction on your posts unless you post your stats, training, diet and some pics.
If your diet and training are not on point you are going to be underwhelmed with any drugs you take. Gear is only a couple percent of the equation.

 

[GoldenPlague]

You won't use HCG or clomid on cycle. They do not keep natural test production going. Just plump the balls and kinda help with maintaining fertility

I accept that hCG only mimics the effects of LH and FSH in order to prevent testicular atrophy, but maybe doesn't boost testosterone production.

But why do you say clomiphene doesn't boost T production? Isn't clomiphene meant to stimulate T production in men with hypogonadism and during a PCT? I got the impression that clomiphene works to make the hypothalamus to release more LH and FSH in order to keep natural testosterone production ongoing and boost it.

This would be your best option. If you use 2-300 test and primo you should have nothing to worry about as far as gyno. Primo has some AI properties.

Shouldn't I use just 100-125 mg testosterone per week? The goal isn't to do a testosterone cycle, but only to keep testosterone levels within normal range during a testosterone-suppressive cycle with primobolan.

Currently, my T level stands at 600 ng/dL, and I think a 125 mg TRT dose can replicate it.

And what do you mean by "AI properties"?

That's your choice. PCT is not required after any cycle but it helps to bring your balls back online.

Even if I don't do a PCT, won't the testicles still regrow but slower?

It can't

Ok.

You will be shut down and only external T will be present. Your T blood numbers will prob be 5-7 times the dose. 200mg/wk would prob put you around 1000-1200ng/dl.

Gynecomastia will very likely develop at such a dose, given the fact I'm not genetically predisposed to high T, naturally. I will go with 100 or 125 mg a week, so my T can be around 600 ng/dL.

I believe it's 4-6 hours so you would prob want to take it 3 times per day.

Will I also have to set up night alarms for every 4 hours to wake me for a pill?

The only time you would use it is if you started to develop gyno and then you would go into anti gyno protocol. I believe 20mg/daily can reverse the gyno if you catch it right away.

Yes.
Okay.

Is it always guaranteed for gynecomastia to have symptoms, or can it happen without symptoms? Is there a chance development will progress to the point of no return without exhibiting any symptoms, so I won't be able to know I need to start using tamoxifen?

And again, tamoxifen won't be needed during a primobolan-only cycle and after it during a PCT, only clomiphene will be needed, right?

To summarize. Take test with your primo
No HCG or Clomid on cycle
Have your tamoxifen on hand but you won't need it.
Have aromison on hand just in case you need it.
Order all of your products from Domestic-Supply or Napsgear

I feel like you are looking to use test cream and oral primo?
Test cream will be hard to control and needs to be applied multiple times per day. Primo dose would be around 500-600mg/wk.
I get that your scared but this cycle is not ideal. Injectable would be much better/easier.

So I need aromasin, not tamoxifen?

No, I don't need to use gels and creams. I wanted to use them before I decided to go on a cycle. Now, given the fact I will go on a cycle and get a higher DHT levels due to primobolan anyway, I no longer think about using DHT gels.

It turned out, by the way, DHT gels are very expensive for the quantity they come with. I don't know why.

I will buy some of the products from eu-domestic.to ,which is the European shop of Domestic-Supply, since they have better prices and currency is in euro, not dollars.

However, some of the other products I need, I'm planning to directly from Hilma Biocare's reseller, who is called RoidTeam. The scheme is legit, ok? I contacted them on Telegram.

And yes, I know the cycle isn't ideal and injectables are always better than orals. But I'm still afraid I may get fake products. If the wrong substances is consumed, orals will cause far less problems than injectables. It's easier to deal with problems caused by oral steroids than with problems caused by the same steroid but in injectable form.

 

[stevesmi]

on cycle clomid doesn't stop shutdown

your body is still getting exogenous hormones.
If such a thing was possible then we could just use Clomid on cycle and never have to worry about doing a post cycle therapy and ever having to worry about blowing out our reproductive system

wishful thinking is always a beautiful thing and I've seen plenty of broscience over the years from people claiming this or that but lucky for people like me who actually believe in science the blood work never lies

as long as your body detects exogenous hormones it will not recover PERIOD. only then is the right time to use clomid

 

[LevButlerov]

Okay, I finally decided what to do. My first cycle will be with primobolan, and it will be a primobolan-only cycle.

I'm planning to use products by Hilma Biocare either bought from Domestic-Supply's eu-domestic.to or Hilma's official re-seller.

I'm now just trying to get help to see if I understand things correctly. Can you, please, read my understanding and tell me if it's correct?

Primobolan doesn't cause aromatization, meaning it can't cause elevated estrogen levels, meaning no estrogen blockers, such as tamoxifen, will be needed during or after the cycle. However, since primobolan doesn't add externally testosterone to the body and suppresses natural testosterone production, this will shut down natural testosterone production and lead to low estrogen.

To prevent this (low estrogen and shut down T production), what should I do? If I use clomiphene during the cycle, will this be enough to prevent testicular atrophy and keep natural T production ongoing, or will I have to use hCG, too? Problem is, I don't want to use hCG, and prefer to go with clomiphene, assuming it can do what I want.

Or, perhaps, I could use a TRT dose during the cycle to keep my testosterone levels within the normal range? If I do this, I don't think I will ever switch back to natural testosterone production.

I don't think I should do a PCT. I don't see any reasons to do a PCT. I think, once I start doing steroids, it will be best to remain on a TRT dose when off-cycle. So when I'm on cycle, I do PED doses, and when I'm off-cycle, I do a TRT dose. What do you think about this?

As for gynecomastia, which is among my primary concern, I don't see how primobolan can cause it.

I looked some information using ChatGPT, and I saw claims that primobolan can cause gynecomastia, which I don't think is true. According to the claims, primobolan can cause gynecomastia, because it reduces testosterone, causing estrogen to become relatively higher. But I don't think that's the case.

When primobolan reduces testosterone, aromatization will also be reduced, leading to reduced estrogen levels as well. So, primobolan lowers estrogen and testosterone. Gynecomastia is caused by estrogen binding to the mammary glands. When I don't use primobolan, my estrogen is normal - 20 to 40 picograms per milliliter. When I use primobolan, testosterone and aromatization will be lowered, meaning estrogen will be lowered below 20 picograms per milliliter. So, if I don't get gynecomastia at a normal estrogen level, why would I get gynecomastia at a below normal estrogen level? This is what I can't understand.

To the best of my knowledge, gynecomastia is caused by elevated estrogen levels, not by low testosterone. So even with low T present, I still can't get gynecomastia if my estrogen isn't elevated. And since aromatization needs T to produce E, E will be automatically reduced when T is reduced due to introduction of primobolan to the body. In other words, a non-aromatizing steroid like primobolan can't cause gynecomastia. Is this correct?

If we assume I will do a TRT dose during the cycle, this means I will have elevated testosterone levels for some time. Currently, as you saw in my blood test results, my testosterone level is at 602 ng/dL. Will this testosterone level become around 1400 (doubled) when I make the first TRT injection, or will natural T production stop the second I inject the TRT dose?

Basically, I'm asking if I already have a normal T level and I inject a TRT dose, will this natural T level be replaced with the synthetic testosterone, or will the synthetic testosterone be put on the top of the 600 ng/dL I already have, leading to a doubled testosterone level of around 1,400 ng/dL, which may lead to high aromatization and gynecomastia?

Here are the products I'm planning to buy:

Tamoxifen - https://eu-domestic.to/nolvadex-tamoxifen-10mg-50tabs

Or this (I'm still not sure): https://eu-domestic.to/tamoxifen-citrate-20mg-50tabs

The primobolan medication (oral form / pills): https://eu-domestic.to/primobolan-acetate-25mg-50tabs

Clomiphene - https://eu-domestic.to/clomiphene-citrate-50mg-50tabs

(By the way, if 25 mg clomiphene is better than 50 mg, I will use a pill cutter. Is 50 mg too high dose?)

Also, can you tell me if the half-life mentioned in the link above is correct? Because I heard the half-life of oral primobolan is around 3 hours, not 9 hours. I have to take one or two pills (depending on the dose) each 3 or 9 hours?

As for the tamoxifen, yes, I know it's nonsense to use tamoxifen during a non-aromatizing steroid cycle, but I will still buy it just in case I get gynecomastia symptoms (it's about fears and paranoia ). Tamoxifen, as far as I know, I a powerful drug. I don't want to completely suppress my estrogen, so should I use a pill cutter to make the pill into a smaller and less potent doses? What do you think about this?

These are my questions for now. If I get more questions, I will ask them in this thread.

So check what I said and how I understand it, and tell me if I'm right or wrong.

Thanks.

@GoldenPlague sure primobolan only cycle is fine but how about testosterone base? but really how about knowing if you are serious?
this time you will actually do a cycle or just talk about it? and when is your LOG journal coming up?

 

[GoldenPlague]

on cycle clomid doesn't stop shutdown

your body is still getting exogenous hormones.
If such a thing was possible then we could just use Clomid on cycle and never have to worry about doing a post cycle therapy and ever having to worry about blowing out our reproductive system

wishful thinking is always a beautiful thing and I've seen plenty of broscience over the years from people claiming this or that but lucky for people like me who actually believe in science the blood work never lies

as long as your body detects exogenous hormones it will not recover PERIOD. only then is the right time to use clomid

Understood.

So clomid works only if the body can start producing T, and the body won't start trying to produce T before the end of the half-life of the last exogenous T or DHT substance.

@GoldenPlague sure primobolan only cycle is fine but how about testosterone base? but really how about knowing if you are serious?
this time you will actually do a cycle or just talk about it? and when is your LOG journal coming up?

I'm serious. There is an objective in my life that must be achieved at all costs. I understand the risks, and took the decision to do a steroid cycle.

As for the testornerone base, yes, I'm planning to use a TRT dose, which I already explained in my first post in this thread.

I'm planning to use probably 80 to 100 mg a week, so I can keep my T levels within the normal range. I don't know what my conversion rate is, so I don't want to have too high T levels and risk aromatization to cause gynecomastia. Currently, my T levels are at 600 ng/dL, so I need a TRT dose that will keep them in this range.

I won't use hCG during the cycle, because it's very meaningless, as far as I can tell. Basically, hCG is all about cosmetic effects - preventing testicular atrophy. The testicles will regrow anyway when the cycle ends, if I decide to do a PCT instead of remaining on TRT for life.

I still haven't decided if I want to do a PCT or TRT for life. I'm pretty sure remaining on a TRT dose during off-cycle times will be better than PCT.

 

[Mobster]

In three years time

 

[GoldenPlague]

In three years time

What three years time?

 

[stevesmi]

Understood.

So clomid works only if the body can start producing T, and the body won't start trying to produce T before the end of the half-life of the last exogenous T or DHT substance.

clomid works when you take clomid
but when you say 'works' i'm talking specifically about manipulating your pituitary glands.. as long as there is exogenous hormones its not gonna over power that.
but it still does things when you take it. it will still block estrogen feedbacking and cause other things to happen which are not good on cycle. so save it for pct only

 

[Mobster]

What three years time?

When I recommend you start.

Also for the benefit of any others too young too

 

[GoldenPlague]

clomid works when you take clomid
but when you say 'works' i'm talking specifically about manipulating your pituitary glands.. as long as there is exogenous hormones its not gonna over power that.
but it still does things when you take it. it will still block estrogen feedbacking and cause other things to happen which are not good on cycle. so save it for pct only

Blocking estrogen feedback during a DHT-based cycle that doesn't add exogenous testosterone is a bad idea, yes.

Okay, I will save it for the potential PCT.

And I have one more question. To artificially maintain a T level of 600 ng/dL during a DHT-based cycle (primobolan-only cycle), should I use fast esters or slow esters? What is bets - testosterone enanthate, cypionate or propionate? The T levels should be stable.

Would using slow esters be better, since the risk of fibrosis is lower?

 

[GoldenPlague]

When I recommend you start.

Also for the benefit of any others too young too

No, I'm not too you. Do you know how old am I? I will be 24 years old in less than 6 months.

Why do you think it's a bad idea to do steroids before the age of 25 and full HPTA development? What could go wrong? If you want to discourage me, list the worst things that can happen, according to you, if I start doing steroids now.

 

[stevesmi]

Blocking estrogen feedback during a DHT-based cycle that doesn't add exogenous testosterone is a bad idea, yes.

Okay, I will save it for the potential PCT.

And I have one more question. To artificially maintain a T level of 600 ng/dL during a DHT-based cycle (primobolan-only cycle), should I use fast esters or slow esters? What is bets - testosterone enanthate, cypionate or propionate? The T levels should be stable.

Would using slow esters be better, since the risk of fibrosis is lower?

long esters are easier. just pin 100mgs of test a week. that is it

if you want to run just primo no problem. arnold ran primo and a handful of dbol

 

[Phill]

yet another same thread on the fear of gynecomastia and a disastrous plan that will lead to even worse.

I told you in a thousand other identical threads and other forums and I'll repeat it again:
You are not ready for these things!

 

[Mobster]

No, I'm not too you. Do you know how old am I? I will be 24 years old in less than 6 months.

Why do you think it's a bad idea to do steroids before the age of 25 and full HPTA development? What could go wrong? If you want to discourage me, list the worst things that can happen, according to you, if I start doing steroids now.

Nope. Two weeks ago you said you was 22. And I said it was for the benefit of others.

And the whole HPTA thing has been covered. I'm not writing it out again just for you here

 

[GoldenPlague]

long esters are easier. just pin 100mgs of test a week. that is it

if you want to run just primo no problem. arnold ran primo and a handful of dbol

Okay. And is it known how much ng/dL of testosterone will I have from 100 mg a week? I prefer the level to be no higher than 600 ng/dL.

Is there a way to measure my conversion rate? For example, if I know what my estrogen level is at 600 ng/dL of testosterone, can it be predicted at what picograms per milliliter of estrogen I will get gynecomastia, assuming gynecomastia formation begins after a specific estrogen level is passed?

As for your suggestion about D-bol, the cycle will become too complex for me. I prefer a primobolan-only cycle as a first cycle.

Also, Arnold didn't use testosterone, because D-bol is an aromatizing steroids, meaning he wouldn't have gotten low estrogen due to natural testosterone production suppression caused by primobolan.

Nope. Two weeks ago you said you was 22. And I said it was for the benefit of others.

And the whole HPTA thing has been covered. I'm not writing it out again just for you here

No, I didn't say I'm 22 years old. I probably mistyped something. As of today, I'm 23 years old, and I will be 24 years old in less than 6 months from now.

As for the HPTA, if sterility and TRT for life are the worst side effects that can happen, keep in mind I have already stated multiple times these are trade offs I'm okay with.

Sterility and permanently suppressed T production aren't scary enough to make me give up.

 

[GoldenPlague]

yet another same thread on the fear of gynecomastia and a disastrous plan that will lead to even worse.

This thread isn't about gynecomastia. In my first post, I just expressed my opinion about other people claiming that primobolan can cause gynecomastia.

You are not ready for these things!

F*ck everything, I'm going through.

I overcame many of my fears related to black market steroids.

 

[Mobster]

Where are you get fibrosis as an issue from?

 

[Mobster]

I've been very clear in one of the replies above regarding the benefits of my ensuring others who are young and might read this. You be clear on a point - you might ask and question, and if lucky get a reply, but you do not OWN the answer. It serves a further purpose when others read it.

Example: I have a log. I get a few replies. It has been read 1000's of times. The same works for those who research an answer vs just asking. Not everyone ignores good advice