Steroids, God, and Politics...

[at(almost)ANYcost]

gotta agree..i love lifting weights and eating clean, but my lifts are *****...well at least to me they are haha

True... I have never in my life gone over a 500 pound dead lift, although I have repped 315 OVER 30 times on vacation. Those lifts might not make some Strongman competitor on ESPN shake in their boots, but my goodness, you load up half that weight on a bar and tell Joe Schmoe to go lift it off the ground, he'd end up in a full body brace with years of therapy, AND WE DO IT TO WARM UP!

 

[local hero]

alot seem to get bodybuilding and powerlifting mixed up, it doesnt work that way, it doesnt matter at all how much you can bench or squat, i dont know anyone who trains very heavy anymore

in all honesty, competitive bodybuilding is all about drugs, genes and the latter point is training, basically training enough to stimulate your muscle and staying injury free

you dont need crazy hardcore routines, just use the right amount of weight for you, which is usualy alot less than everyone is currently using


once youve had the progression of 4 or so more years natty youl be as big as u can be natty, add some test cycles youl progress then stall again, then you up the dose and grow thru the next barrier, only way to gain more and more size is to add more gear and hgh and slin,,, you could train as hard or as easy as you liked and the only thing that would matter is your drug intake

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

alot seem to get bodybuilding and powerlifting mixed up, it doesnt work that way, it doesnt matter at all how much you can bench or squat, i dont know anyone who trains very heavy anymore

in all honesty, competitive bodybuilding is all about drugs, genes and the latter point is training, basically training enough to stimulate your muscle and staying injury free

you dont need crazy hardcore routines, just use the right amount of weight for you, which is usualy alot less than everyone is currently using


once youve had the progression of 4 or so more years natty youl be as big as u can be natty, add some test cycles youl progress then stall again, then you up the dose and grow thru the next barrier, only way to gain more and more size is to add more gear and hgh and slin,,, you could train as hard or as easy as you liked and the only thing that would matter is your drug intake

You had me going with the first half of your post, but the latter portion was so riddled with flaws and inaccuracies I'm not sure where, or even if, I should offer counter points. Oh, I also have to always supplement my posts by saying I'm merely offering my perspective in a straight forward way, NONE of what I say or how I say it means if I saw any of you in public I'd want to fist fight, that's foolish. I'm only keeping the conversation lively, and being true to my own sentiments.

Anyway, when you said 'competitive bodybuilding is all about drugs,' that is entirely and wholly off base and flawed. Now, if you were to rephrase that and say IFBB BODYBUILDING, I would be much more inclined to come around into your realm of thinking.

For example, over the last decade, INCLUDING my most recent show just last Spring, I prepared and competed truly 100% natural - absolutely free of ANY hormonal introduction and I even stayed super minimal on supplement intake altogether.

Chemical warfare is NOT what makes a bodybuilder bigger, I can't believe this is a recurring issue on these forums where I assume the average member is well versed. Bodybuilding is an individual sport, and like ANYTHING else in life, decisions are dictated BY THE INDIVIDUAL. For example, I can inject 2 grams of Test a week, and sit around playing PS3 and eating creme sticks from Dunkin' Donuts, and won't look A THING like even a low-tier national NPC competitor. However, that same drug protocol when combined with YEARS AND YEARS of calculated relentless training and sacrifice, pools of sweat, and hundreds upon hundreds of pounds of tasteless bland lean meat leater along with walking on treadmills like a zombie - THEN those factors aggregate!

I really am not as concerned with going balls to the wall heavy....just like to be fit.

Nice - bodybuilding is not for everyone, just as any other imaginable endeavor or pursuit isn't for everyone. Bodybuilding nourishes my soul and builds up my character and happiness like nearly nothing else in the World, however, I have NO interest in being a Nascar driver for instance.

 

[imported_ceo]

The biggest (and strongest) BBers on stage today started off as PLers. Ronnie started off as PLer, Johnnie Jackson still does PL events. I think everyone who wants to be a serious BBer should start off by building a solid foundation doing PLing routines for at least 2-3 years before switching to any crappy type of BBing single bodypart split BS routine. There are so many better ways to train for size and strength though that I don't think anyone should train that way.

The guys who started off doing PLing also maintain their mass better as they age. Not to mention it's so much more functional and practical to be strong than it is to be big. A strong man can help you move that piano or fridge or show his kid how to train for sports like football (curls and kickbacks aren't good training exercises for football).

 

[Firetruck]

I would have to agree,compound exercises all the way. When I was approaching 40 I had been training natty very rarely missing a session for five years,I was a late starter. Never really managed to put on size. Got a bit pissed off decided I wanted to run a marathon. Over the next two years trained for and ran 5 marathons last one I was 145lb ran 3.17 that was as far as I could take that. Went back to lifting all big compound moves. Three cycles and a year and a half later I'm 30lbs heavier still fairly lean(still run short distances for cardio) deadlift 450 squat 350. Even when I do arms I do compound,close grip bench for tris and close grip pull ups for biceps. I think to get anywhere near ur potential,whatever that is u have to do the big compound moves IMO

 

[local hero]

You had me going with the first half of your post, but the latter portion was so riddled with flaws and inaccuracies I'm not sure where, or even if, I should offer counter points. Oh, I also have to always supplement my posts by saying I'm merely offering my perspective in a straight forward way, NONE of what I say or how I say it means if I saw any of you in public I'd want to fist fight, that's foolish. I'm only keeping the conversation lively, and being true to my own sentiments.

Anyway, when you said 'competitive bodybuilding is all about drugs,' that is entirely and wholly off base and flawed. Now, if you were to rephrase that and say IFBB BODYBUILDING, I would be much more inclined to come around into your realm of thinking.

For example, over the last decade, INCLUDING my most recent show just last Spring, I prepared and competed truly 100% natural - absolutely free of ANY hormonal introduction and I even stayed super minimal on supplement intake altogether.

Chemical warfare is NOT what makes a bodybuilder bigger, I can't believe this is a recurring issue on these forums where I assume the average member is well versed. Bodybuilding is an individual sport, and like ANYTHING else in life, decisions are dictated BY THE INDIVIDUAL. For example, I can inject 2 grams of Test a week, and sit around playing PS3 and eating creme sticks from Dunkin' Donuts, and won't look A THING like even a low-tier national NPC competitor. However, that same drug protocol when combined with YEARS AND YEARS of calculated relentless training and sacrifice, pools of sweat, and hundreds upon hundreds of pounds of tasteless bland lean meat leater along with walking on treadmills like a zombie - THEN those factors aggregate!



Nice - bodybuilding is not for everyone, just as any other imaginable endeavor or pursuit isn't for everyone. Bodybuilding nourishes my soul and builds up my character and happiness like nearly nothing else in the World, however, I have NO interest in being a Nascar driver for instance.

no problem bud, its only the internet, everyone one has there views..

ive always competed using everything i could afford to take at the time, and for none tested bodybuilding, everything ive said is true.

You get to a point with hard work and normal cycle, then you realise what u need to do to get to the next level and its got nothing to do with what you do in the gym

 

[Redrocker13]

The one word which touches all of it....Freedom. We are created with the innate desire to be free. Free to, as the declaration says, pursue life, liberty and happiness. The fact that I described us having been created tells you where my heart is on the subject of God. Suffice to say it has been impossible for me to reason away the world from the great to the small, the balance and harmony, the power and sheer immensity and what to me is obvious design, to mere chance. But that conclusion is for me. I have no interest in being right for its sake alone nor do I feel compelled to impose. I have no trouble in sharing what I believe and why but ultimately you must reason and choose for yourself. Thus, choice or freedom as it were. But freedom comes with awesome responsibilities.

So, I will pose a challenge to my brothers and sisters here. Whatever the subject, ask yourself this question...Why do you believe what you believe? Is it that you have truly investigated and studied a particular subject? Or is it based more squarely upon your emotions? Are you prepared to exercise your freedom responsibly?

Take steroids for a moment. I myself have engaged in athletics and training for the better part of the last 25 years. Football (playing and coaching) wrestling, the Marines and of course strength training and bodybuilding have all been a part of that journey. I have read virtually everything I could get my hands on from Men's Health, Bill Phillips, The Supplement guide, and on and on. I don't claim to be an expert. Far from it. But I much prefer an educated approach to anything I put in my body and at the same time I want to maximize the time and effort I put in the weight room. Who wouldn't?! Besides, growing old gracefully is for my mother. I plan to fight it tooth and nail! This would be the biggest reason why I am so thankful for this site, for ND2 and the other invaluable resources. Knowledge, quite simply, is power. The power to enjoy my freedom.

Whether the subject is God, politics, steroids or anything else, why do you believe what you believe? Are you standing on solid ground as best you can decipher? Because you've studied it? And here's why I bring it up. I strongly suspect that the 'steroid' naysayers come from a limited understanding. And to say the least, that's a little frustrating. When someone, anyone, forms an opinion based upon limited or flawed information, logic and reason then become difficult tenets to achieve in conversation. Yes some things are subject to mere opinion but what are those opinions predicated upon?

So....Why do you believe what you believe?

PS…Yes, I love good conversation and inviting people around me to think. It’s good for you!

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

The biggest (and strongest) BBers on stage today started off as PLers. Ronnie started off as PLer, Johnnie Jackson still does PL events. I think everyone who wants to be a serious BBer should start off by building a solid foundation doing PLing routines for at least 2-3 years before switching to any crappy type of BBing single bodypart split BS routine. There are so many better ways to train for size and strength though that I don't think anyone should train that way.

The guys who started off doing PLing also maintain their mass better as they age. Not to mention it's so much more functional and practical to be strong than it is to be big. A strong man can help you move that piano or fridge or show his kid how to train for sports like football (curls and kickbacks aren't good training exercises for football).

There's nothing here I disagree with or was even hinting at disagreeing with before in my retorts. I, like any truly committed bodybuilder, NEVER skimp on the puke inducing manhood proving hardcore irrefutably superior and brutal basics of compound movements. However, my initial point was that strength as a goal, as an end point, or even as some token of accomplishment was a moot point and ambition, because it leads toward injury when ego takes over, and should also be used as a tool to INCREASE the original goal, rather than supplant it. Bodybuilding still requires isolation, along WITH the complimenting compound movements, but once a bodybuilder dabbled in and switches gears to a more powerlifting routine, those very fine nuances of a well sculpted meticulous physique fade, since you have to choose one or the other.

Johnnie Jackson is a strong bodybuilder, yes, but he is a IFBB pro bodybuilder, not a World's Strongest Man with his weight belt keeping his gut from spilling over like the record breaking bench pressers etc. He, like Ronnie Coleman, still include a staggering amount of incalculable bodybuilding specific exercises along with the very select few deadlifts they may perform. You'll never find a Strong Man doing incline one arms dumbbell curls for hours on end during the coarse of a preparation for their next big event, and you'll never find successful bodybuilders on any level (especially professional) lifting logs above their head, or flipping tires, or even doing 1 rep bench presses until their nose spurts blood.

Powerlifting can be an integral part of bodybuilding in a basic sense where it compliments and amplifies the overall results of a bodybuilding minded regimen, but it will never replace it and still be able to lead it's trainee anywhere that can be considered conducive to their original goal.

Weight should be used to stimulate and promote growth, period. It should never be uses as a water mark for progress, and CERTAINLY never something to hang your head low or throw your hands up in expiration. A 500 pound squat, great, a 225 squat, great... as long as each athlete did it CORRECTLY and without the hidden agenda to turn heads in the gym to pump up his ego even more.

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

I would have to agree,compound exercises all the way. When I was approaching 40 I had been training natty very rarely missing a session for five years,I was a late starter. Never really managed to put on size. Got a bit pissed off decided I wanted to run a marathon. Over the next two years trained for and ran 5 marathons last one I was 145lb ran 3.17 that was as far as I could take that. Went back to lifting all big compound moves. Three cycles and a year and a half later I'm 30lbs heavier still fairly lean(still run short distances for cardio) deadlift 450 squat 350. Even when I do arms I do compound,close grip bench for tris and close grip pull ups for biceps. I think to get anywhere near ur potential,whatever that is u have to do the big compound moves IMO

A bodybuilder marathon runner!? Wow, I have to say, that is both impressive AND actually something I've given a huge amount of thought about.

I have, for a number of years now, REALLY wanted to run an Iron Man, or at least some type of Duathlon where participants Bike, Run, Bike (mountain bike or road bike). I can say that I won't be satisfied as an athlete until that happens actually. Training for something other than getting big and shredded would be a blast too - I have some experience with sprints and biking.

no problem bud, its only the internet, everyone one has there views..

ive always competed using everything i could afford to take at the time, and for none tested bodybuilding, everything ive said is true.

You get to a point with hard work and normal cycle, then you realise what u need to do to get to the next level and its got nothing to do with what you do in the gym

I agree, sure, but steroids are never able to garner the entirety of praise. Hitting your quad with a needle won't make you skip that warm fresh cheesy pizza and opt for the shredded chicken breast and green beans... steroids won't make you dig deep for the muster to get in an entire extra set of dead-lifts when you already feel dizzy and week.

The one word which touches all of it....Freedom.

I like this first line, a lot. If we can all be free, without throwing our freedoms on the backs of others, that would be the ideal, near perfect, utopian society. Someone wants to denounce the existence of a higher power, alright. Someone wants to indulge in sexual activity where certain things shouldn't be put in other certain things and at the same time run the risk of contracting AIDS, sure I guess if you like risking your life to put your think in a place where feces comes out. But when it interferes with others who are also in their own pursuit of happiness, no good.

 

[Firetruck]

I'm not anti the idea of a "higher power" I sometimes will be watching national geographic or discovery and think there has to be some intelligent design going on,but I am anti the big religions who basically tell people how to live or else.
Another point on aas,there is no way without them I could have got from 145lbs marathon weight at 42 to 180lb still fairly lean within a year or so,and if some peeps think that's "cheating" somethin or other I don't really care

 

[obsessedwliftin]

I believe, as stated above, that it's about choice. The freedom to choose and what informed decisions we make. Before choosing an aas cycle I would highly recommend doing alot of research on the possible introduction of a anobolic substance into your body. I can also say from experience that alot of people, including me, start using aas well before it is needed. And not only that, well before we can really get the full benefit from it. If an individual has reached his natural ability to grow in size and strength then there really is no other choice than to follow that path. Understanding that there are risks and sometimes consequences as a result. I started cycles well before I was ready physically, and informed mentally, and that is a dangerous combination. Knowing what I do now, I would have trained naturally for much longer than I did to achieve the best physique I could and then contemplate adding aas. Hindsight being 20/20 of course. Now I am training for a much different goal than before and as a result of injury can no longer go heavy like I used to. So I will see just how lean I can get with supplements and alot of high intensity cardio and body weight excersise. And finally when you figure out what physique your going for, what your individual goals are, only then can you determine what path to follow to get there. If you want to powerlift, great. If you want 4% body fat and a ripped physique then your going to have to go a different route to achieve it. If I want to get a desired result I normally follow those that have the results I am after. Just my 2 cents.

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

I'm not anti the idea of a "higher power" I sometimes will be watching national geographic or discovery and think there has to be some intelligent design going on,but I am anti the big religions who basically tell people how to live or else.
Another point on aas,there is no way without them I could have got from 145lbs marathon weight at 42 to 180lb still fairly lean within a year or so,and if some peeps think that's "cheating" somethin or other I don't really care

I find so much more comfort in the message that also resonates with me, as spelled out describing intelligent design - rather than some attempt by mere men who went to college that offers their best attempt by saying there was some sort of large bang.

Also, religion doesn't mandate you live a certain way 'or else,' it simply spells out common sense rules of conduct to live in harmony with your fellow man, and invites you to be involved in fellowship with God all leading up to eternal fellowship in Heaven. For those that refuse all of that, it is their choice... which is the beautiful design of it all, it rests in the individuals hands.

Also, for those that claim steroids are cheating... I simple laugh, and keep going on about my day. They say cheating, but what I really hear it "I'm a feeble minded feeble bodies tool, and since I can't accomplish anything worthy of taking note, I'll opt to tear down others who can - and in my limited scope, perspective and brain ability, I can't and won't take the time to educate myself on the facts of anabolic usage."

See, it's all in how you hear things

I believe, as stated above, that it's about choice. The freedom to choose and what informed decisions we make. Before choosing an aas cycle I would highly recommend doing alot of research on the possible introduction of a anobolic substance into your body. I can also say from experience that alot of people, including me, start using aas well before it is needed. And not only that, well before we can really get the full benefit from it. If an individual has reached his natural ability to grow in size and strength then there really is no other choice than to follow that path. Understanding that there are risks and sometimes consequences as a result. I started cycles well before I was ready physically, and informed mentally, and that is a dangerous combination. Knowing what I do now, I would have trained naturally for much longer than I did to achieve the best physique I could and then contemplate adding aas. Hindsight being 20/20 of course. Now I am training for a much different goal than before and as a result of injury can no longer go heavy like I used to. So I will see just how lean I can get with supplements and alot of high intensity cardio and body weight excersise. And finally when you figure out what physique your going for, what your individual goals are, only then can you determine what path to follow to get there. If you want to powerlift, great. If you want 4% body fat and a ripped physique then your going to have to go a different route to achieve it. If I want to get a desired result I normally follow those that have the results I am after. Just my 2 cents.

One thing I truly believe with all my heart, is that no one, not a single human being has ever realized their real maximum of potential. Sure, the progression slows, and if motivation and efforts wane, a user can quickly proclaim stagnation.

 

[imported_ceo]

Johnnie Jackson is a strong bodybuilder, yes, but he is a IFBB pro bodybuilder,

You forgot, JJ is also a competitive powerlifter, and so was Ronnie.

...not a World's Strongest Man with his weight belt keeping his gut from spilling over

WSM Mariusz Pudzianowski (he looks like this all the time, even at comps):

WSM Kevin Nee (carrying a little fat, but still maintains this look all year round):

those guts can easily be dieted down and fat peeled off. Look at Dave Tate, et. al.

Powerlifting can be an integral part of bodybuilding in a basic sense where it compliments and amplifies the overall results of a bodybuilding minded regimen, but it will never replace it and still be able to lead it's trainee anywhere that can be considered conducive to their original goal.

Powerlifting should be the FOUNDATION of a BBer's physique, not an addition or compliment to it.

Weight should be used to stimulate and promote growth, period. It should never be uses as a water mark for progress

I disagree. I know that if I am able to keep moving that squat up 5 lbs. a week, that is progression I can measure. BBing is about progression. Weight is the easiest and best way to measure that.

I've never seen a guy who has taken his 20 rep squat from 225 to 405 complain about the size of his thighs any more.

 

[local hero]

where does it end tho.... what happens when you cant add weight to the bar anymore?

we'd all have 1000lb benches if it never..... and why do the majority look better when they drop the weight and go for feel, if your smart youl make that lighter lift feel like harder work than the heavier one..

all the above are poor examples, they would never go far in bodybuilding, huge frames and large waists dont tend to do well on stage, think kovacs.....

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

You forgot, JJ is also a competitive powerlifter, and so was Ronnie.



WSM Mariusz Pudzianowski (he looks like this all the time, even at comps):

WSM Kevin Nee (carrying a little fat, but still maintains this look all year round):

those guts can easily be dieted down and fat peeled off. Look at Dave Tate, et. al.




Powerlifting should be the FOUNDATION of a BBer's physique, not an addition or compliment to it.



I disagree. I know that if I am able to keep moving that squat up 5 lbs. a week, that is progression I can measure. BBing is about progression. Weight is the easiest and best way to measure that.

I've never seen a guy who has taken his 20 rep squat from 225 to 405 complain about the size of his thighs any more.

I like you CEO! Very, very good point, counterpoint. Awesome!!

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

where does it end tho.... what happens when you cant add weight to the bar anymore?

we'd all have 1000lb benches if it never..... and why do the majority look better when they drop the weight and go for feel, if your smart youl make that lighter lift feel like harder work than the heavier one..

all the above are poor examples, they would never go far in bodybuilding, huge frames and large waists dont tend to do well on stage, think kovacs.....

I know what you mean, progression as measured by poundage used is a dead end road, eventually, for all athletes no matter what level or genetic gift.

Kovacs... wow, you know a little bit of history here, but I was in the audience the year Greg Kovacs walked out on stage at the Arnold, and was sort of 'booed' off stage, or at least there seemed to be crickets in the auditorium. It was really, really awkward and he sensed it, and just walked away behind the curtain. Everyone was kind of uneasy, and some were really in disbelief. I'm still shocked at the level of fame and notoriety Greg Kovacs was able to achieve without ever winning anything of great importance. I guess that's what a nice old Muscle Tech contract can do for someone.

I tried to find his routine online, but after a few Google searches, couldn't locate a file that worked. It was the 2004 Arnold Classic though, and his legs were so, so depleted and small...

Canada... has put out some great bodybuilders in recent years though... agreed or disagreed?

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

Some new questions...

-Is it a constant struggle, even on a very small level, for steroid users here knowing that every time they administer, they are technically breaking the law and engaging in practices no different by definition than a cocaine and meth addict?

-If you HAD TO CHOOSE, would you rather have an amazing, head turning, PHENOMENAL upper body, with teeny tiny legs... or a well rounded proportioned body that was much, much smaller where people couldn't tell you train with baggy clothes on?

 

[local hero]

who cares about legality,,,, i break the law everyday when i edge over 70mph in my car to work every day ,altho in uk it isnt illegal... i know where your coming from morally tho, the 1st time you shoot up you do get visions of junkies skipping through your thoughts

regarding the other point, i hate to admit it but id have the latter...

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

who cares about legality,,,, i break the law everyday when i edge over 70mph in my car to work every day ,altho in uk it isnt illegal... i know where your coming from morally tho, the 1st time you shoot up you do get visions of junkies skipping through your thoughts

regarding the other point, i hate to admit it but id have the latter...

Why hate to admit it? It's a pretty noble thing to sacrifice overwhelming mass for a nice well proportioned physique!

How about this everyone:

If you could take a drug that was GUARANTEED beyond a shadow of a doubt to make you look like Jay Cutler ON STAGE in 2009 when he dominated everyone, BUT you would also never be able to have children, and you would have to offer up every last penny in your checking and savings account, as well as give up your car and ride a bus to and from work until you could afford a new car............ would you do it?

 

[imported_ceo]

where does it end tho.... what happens when you cant add weight to the bar anymore?

we'd all have 1000lb benches if it never..... and why do the majority look better when they drop the weight and go for feel, if your smart youl make that lighter lift feel like harder work than the heavier one..

all the above are poor examples, they would never go far in bodybuilding, huge frames and large waists dont tend to do well on stage, think kovacs.....

too tired to get too into this stuff now, but of course you're not going to have everyone end up benching 1000 lbs. But they'd get a lot farther if they TRIED just adding 5 lbs a week. Of course it's not going to happen every week. When I stall on an exercise, I switch it out for another. I can come back to the first exercise after I stall on the new one.

After their first few years of training, 99% of trainees in gyms everywhere train with the same weights year after year. And after those first few years of growth, 99% of them never grow. Even the guys on juice stop growing. I've seen guys go on cycle after cycle and go from 200 to 220 during cycle, then back down to 200 after cycle and PCT. They do it every cycle, year after year.

If they started eating 500-600 grams of protein a day and started trying to add weight to the bar each time, trying to add 5 lbs a week until they got that 500 lb bench, 700 lb squat, and 700 lb deadlift...they'd start gaining and growing again.

My "poor examples" weren't so poor. If you bothered to read my post you'd realize I wasn't saying at all that those guys would or would not go far in BBing. I was merely refuting the opinion that all the WSM athletes have to wear belts to "keep their guts from spilling over". You completely missed the point, even though I made it completely obvious by directly quoting him (even editing down to make it easier on the reader).