drop sets debate

[stevesmi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iddnRPOhvpg

drop sets are when you do some sets and then 'drop' the weight down.. so lets say you do 80 pounds bicep curls to failure then switch to 50 pounds and do more reps. that's just an example.

Jerry Ward makes a good point on his position against them. I do use them myself sometimes so I am split on the issue. Wondering what the board thinks and why?

 

[sullerson]

I do drop sets as well. I prefer them on my "lighter" days. My normal days, I go to failure using straight sets. Then my lighter days, I'll drop the weight a tad and do 2-3 drop sets just to really full up the muscles with blood and work at a faster pace (endurance). Interesting thoughts by Jerry here.

 

[TBol]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iddnRPOhvpg

drop sets are when you do some sets and then 'drop' the weight down.. so lets say you do 80 pounds bicep curls to failure then switch to 50 pounds and do more reps. that's just an example.

Jerry Ward makes a good point on his position against them. I do use them myself sometimes so I am split on the issue. Wondering what the board thinks and why?

1) Reading the U.S, UK and Australian Armed forces physical training, they always make a point of advising against doing sets to failure, they always mention you do one less than your max and on cardio you run as fast as you can talk, thus you work your way up this way. Since reading that and growing up with military men, I stopped going to failure.
2) I use dropsets once a week, and I think every time I do them my next session of say arm is better than the one before, personally I am seeing progress with those, so that is personal experience.

 

[megamanmuscle]

I love Jerry's channel and highly respect his opinions and views on training/drugs/life. That being said, I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE. Drop sets are not for everyone but I find them to be extremely effective.

Jerry is basically arguing that: 1) drop sets over-tax your nervous system 2) it lessens the work done by muscles because you decrease weight 3) you are unnecessarily increasing muscular endurance and not hypertrophy 4) less 'continuous' time under tension 5) anecdotal evidence that it doesn't work.

By far the most compelling of these arguments is that drop sets can over tax your nervous system leading to overtraining. This is certainly true for some people as well as newbies to the weight room but this phenomena is not limited to drop sets. Anytime you dedicate an entire workout to a single body part you can over-tax your nervous system even if you are only using straight sets, because you are still doing 16+ sets on a specific muscle group. BUT this is why people with 6 day splits wait a week before training the same muscle group again. There is simply more to recover from. Case in point look at Arnold's old school 2 workouts a day, 2 day splits, training 6 days a week. A mere mortal would have the same over training issues Jerry described even if they used straight sets.

Let me ask you guys something, why do we use spotters during traditional sets? Aside from safety, spotters help us squeeze the last couple reps out at the end of a set when our muscles are failing. But guess what, that's exactly the same effect as lowering (dropping) the weight! It seems like Jerry's true philosophy is against training to failure in general for the reasons listed above.

Regarding the rest of his points: Apparently I have fundamental differences with Jerry about the principles of hypertrophy. I've always believed in lifting the MUSCLE and not the weight. Getting a good pump. Maximizing the amount of time my muscles are under tension with as much weight as possible. High weight (relatively)/high reps. To me the best way to do this is using drop sets!

I don't use drop sets for every lift and every muscle group. I tend to use pyramid sets for heavier compound lifts. Isolation work is where drop sets really shine, because of the limitations of how much weight you can use. Therefore one has to compensate, make the lift harder, by lifting heavy for some good reps, dropping the weight and keeping the train rolling.

The reason this works is simply the total 'work' done by a muscle group. Total weight * distance moved * time under tension. Literally the basics of progressive overload for hypertrophy. Here's a comment from Jerry on this video: "study my ass, show me someone gain size faster than me doing drop sets. i bet i blow their doors off training my way. studies are great but in the gym the only thing that piece of paper is good for is wiping your ass." Apparently he doesn't give a shit about studies, well I don't give a shit about his anecdotal evidence.

Again, drop sets aren't going to be the best for everyone but I would wager that a large portion of bodybuilders especially the non-nattys would benefit from them.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ good post bro.

 

[Bigbird138]

Agreed.
I implement drop sets often but they are just one of many tools that I use to keep things changing in my workouts from month to month. Certainly for me I can see benifit when I cycle them in and out of my routine.

Wanna get Krazie?

 

[Bane]

If a set felt a little too easy for whatever reason, then I might grab a lighter weight and throw and extra drop in.

 

[mraesthetic]

I usually do drop sets near the end of my workout when im very tired.

 

[liv2pb]

I drop set every once in awhile to switch it up.
Every set I do is to failure.

 

[swa2ggs]

I tend to use drop sets when I am dieting/ cutting because I tend to be slightly weaker cuz I am in a calorie deficit. It allows me to keep up training intensity when I run out of gas!!!

 

[tincity]

I do my drop set usually on the last set. If I'm going from 80lbs. to 50lbs, that 50lbs. feels like 100lbs! I definately dont feel accustomed to 50 lbs when im finished.

 

[RickRock]

I don't really employ drop sets, and I do agree a lot with what he said. However, I did employ an entire rest,pause set protocol (DC Training) for 3 years and had incredible success with it. I ALWAYS train to failure, and I honestly believe if you strive for constant progression through progressive overload (beating your last numbers) and overcoming adaptation by changing things, you will succeed.

 

[Sammyjax]

I don't really employ drop sets, and I do agree a lot with what he said. However, I did employ an entire rest,pause set protocol (DC Training) for 3 years and had incredible success with it. I ALWAYS train to failure, and I honestly believe if you strive for constant progression through progressive overload (beating your last numbers) and overcoming adaptation by changing things, you will succeed.

Is there a set rate at which the body can rebuild muscle and for how long will it do overcompensation? I'm just wondering if it would be better to go just to failure and just work out more often, since that would allow your CNS to recover more quickly.

Much anabolic, so muscle.

 

[Taurus]

I often incorporate drop sets in my workouts. This is an interesting debate.

 

[RickRock]

Is there a set rate at which the body can rebuild muscle and for how long will it do overcompensation? I'm just wondering if it would be better to go just to failure and just work out more often, since that would allow your CNS to recover more quickly.

Much anabolic, so muscle.

I think everyone is different, but if you do high intensity, low volume (like I was doing), over stressing the CNS becomes a non issue because you are doing a lot less volume. My routine was 2 warmup sets followed by one rest pause working set to failure per muscle group. However every bodypart was hit every 4-5 days and I grew like hell on it

 

[Wacoach]

I think everyone is different, but if you do high intensity, low volume (like I was doing), over stressing the CNS becomes a non issue because you are doing a lot less volume. My routine was 2 warmup sets followed by one rest pause working set to failure per muscle group. However every bodypart was hit every 4-5 days and I grew like hell on it

I am kind of a mixed bag on that. On one hand, the volume is low (one set) so you don't need the recovery time that you normally would for 4-5 sets. On the other hand, you are continually breaking down the same muscles on a daily basis. I would have to assume that you were on cycle, eating like crazy, and sleeping 8 hours a night of you were growing. It makes since to me that it would be a good way to train if you were cutting or getting leaner, since you would be in a constant break down of muscle. That being said, I am not arguing, just stating what makes sense to me. You have experience doing this routine and I have not used it. I have gone 3 days a week total body, but not 4-5.

 

[Sammyjax]

A heard from a guy that going ALMOST to failure and working out more often brought faster gains because of a shortened CNS recovery. I don't know how true this is.

Much anabolic, so muscle.

 

[JackSteel]

I love drop sets. They're extremely effective at mass building.


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[JackSteel]

I love Jerry's channel and highly respect his opinions and views on training/drugs/life. That being said, I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE. Drop sets are not for everyone but I find them to be extremely effective.

Jerry is basically arguing that: 1) drop sets over-tax your nervous system 2) it lessens the work done by muscles because you decrease weight 3) you are unnecessarily increasing muscular endurance and not hypertrophy 4) less 'continuous' time under tension 5) anecdotal evidence that it doesn't work.

By far the most compelling of these arguments is that drop sets can over tax your nervous system leading to overtraining. This is certainly true for some people as well as newbies to the weight room but this phenomena is not limited to drop sets. Anytime you dedicate an entire workout to a single body part you can over-tax your nervous system even if you are only using straight sets, because you are still doing 16+ sets on a specific muscle group. BUT this is why people with 6 day splits wait a week before training the same muscle group again. There is simply more to recover from. Case in point look at Arnold's old school 2 workouts a day, 2 day splits, training 6 days a week. A mere mortal would have the same over training issues Jerry described even if they used straight sets.

Let me ask you guys something, why do we use spotters during traditional sets? Aside from safety, spotters help us squeeze the last couple reps out at the end of a set when our muscles are failing. But guess what, that's exactly the same effect as lowering (dropping) the weight! It seems like Jerry's true philosophy is against training to failure in general for the reasons listed above.

Regarding the rest of his points: Apparently I have fundamental differences with Jerry about the principles of hypertrophy. I've always believed in lifting the MUSCLE and not the weight. Getting a good pump. Maximizing the amount of time my muscles are under tension with as much weight as possible. High weight (relatively)/high reps. To me the best way to do this is using drop sets!

I don't use drop sets for every lift and every muscle group. I tend to use pyramid sets for heavier compound lifts. Isolation work is where drop sets really shine, because of the limitations of how much weight you can use. Therefore one has to compensate, make the lift harder, by lifting heavy for some good reps, dropping the weight and keeping the train rolling.

The reason this works is simply the total 'work' done by a muscle group. Total weight * distance moved * time under tension. Literally the basics of progressive overload for hypertrophy. Here's a comment from Jerry on this video: "study my ass, show me someone gain size faster than me doing drop sets. i bet i blow their doors off training my way. studies are great but in the gym the only thing that piece of paper is good for is wiping your ass." Apparently he doesn't give a shit about studies, well I don't give a shit about his anecdotal evidence.

Again, drop sets aren't going to be the best for everyone but I would wager that a large portion of bodybuilders especially the non-nattys would benefit from them.

I agree. None of those reasons hold any water in my opinion because time under stress is what matters in building muscle mass. Your muscle doesn't know how much weight it's lifting it just knows how much stress it's under. A muscle can only contract or relax. It cannot contract harder or softer it just contracts or doesn't.
Plus overloading the nervous system is fine if you allow proper rest and nutrition afterward.


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[ArmyRecon]

I always do a drop on my last set, and will sometimes drop it 2 or 3 times...going to failure every time. Get a massive pump this way, and always feel it the next day.

 

[dstrong1]

Not sure what its called but what i do is, for ex. Benchpress
Weight/reps
205/10
185/10
165/10
145/10
125/10
105/10
85/10
65/10
then all way back up to 205 with sets of 10. lil rest as possible. Pump is insane!

 

[dstrong1]

Obviousy on way back up each set isnt 10 straight reps. Sometimes only 2-3.

 

[Sammyjax]

I agree. None of those reasons hold any water in my opinion because time under stress is what matters in building muscle mass. Your muscle doesn't know how much weight it's lifting it just knows how much stress it's under. A muscle can only contract or relax. It cannot contract harder or softer it just contracts or doesn't.
Plus overloading the nervous system is fine if you allow proper rest and nutrition afterward.


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I'm not saying you're wrong, but are there any studies on this? I thought there were different levels of contraction, making the difference between holding a glass of water or breaking it with your hand, or is that just how far you're contacting?

Much anabolic, so muscle.

 

[Sammyjax]

Contracting*

Why the hell won't Evo let you edit?

Much anabolic, so muscle.

 

[Wacoach]

You are correct. A muscle fiber either contracts or doesn't, but what changes is how many fibers fire to complete a movement. Your body recruits more fibers to move a 80 lb dumbbell than it does for a 50 lb one. For example, every fiber in the biceps don't act together for every curl. Otherwise, you would break the glass, as you stated.

 

[rcorchid]

Agreed.
I implement drop sets often but they are just one of many tools that I use to keep things changing in my workouts from month to month. Certainly for me I can see benifit when I cycle them in and out of my routine.

Wanna get Krazie?

I agree, this is how I do it too. It's just another tool to use.

 

[gymrat827]

I love drop sets. They're extremely effective at mass building.


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i dont get mass from them......


i do get growth....but not mass. Ill need to slam a shit ton of cals post WO and really break down the muscle to get it to grow well. Otherwise its just a good workout and i see fatloss (total body & BF)

 

[RickRock]

I am kind of a mixed bag on that. On one hand, the volume is low (one set) so you don't need the recovery time that you normally would for 4-5 sets. On the other hand, you are continually breaking down the same muscles on a daily basis. I would have to assume that you were on cycle, eating like crazy, and sleeping 8 hours a night of you were growing. It makes since to me that it would be a good way to train if you were cutting or getting leaner, since you would be in a constant break down of muscle. That being said, I am not arguing, just stating what makes sense to me. You have experience doing this routine and I have not used it. I have gone 3 days a week total body, but not 4-5.

That was not full body workouts. It was an upper body/ lower body split alternating, and only training 3 days per week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday), so if Monday was upper body, it was repeated again on Friday. Wednesdays workout was repeated the next Monday, etc..

 

[Wacoach]

That was not full body workouts. It was an upper body/ lower body split alternating, and only training 3 days per week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday), so if Monday was upper body, it was repeated again on Friday. Wednesdays workout was repeated the next Monday, etc..

Got it. That makes more sense that you grew like hell doing it.

 

[MikeSnow]

I certainly do them but depends on the exercise, I see people drop setting with flat bench and I dont know I'd just much rather go to failure ya know.. But all and all I utilize it here and there for the pump and for the intensity

 

[Sammyjax]

That was not full body workouts. It was an upper body/ lower body split alternating, and only training 3 days per week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday), so if Monday was upper body, it was repeated again on Friday. Wednesdays workout was repeated the next Monday, etc..

That sounds like something I'd like to try out. I've been going more often, 6 days a week with a 3 day split. Would this be a good regiment while on a test c cycle only? I'm gonna be doing 250 test c e3d and it could be my workout day.

Also, just to make sure, you were going to failure right? or past failure?

Much anabolic, so muscle.