Second Cycle Options

[Cratos]

Goal:
Lean mass gain.

Pre Cycle Stats:
Age: 27
Height: 5’7
Weight: 190lb
BF%: 15%? Abs slightly faded

Diet:
Calories: 4600-4700
Fish Oil: 2g
Niacin: 1.8g
CoQ10: 200mg
Curcumin: 200mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 400mg

Training:
4.5 years training experience with a focus on powerlifting. Last years meet PR’s were 420 High Bar Squat/265 Pause Bench/455 Deadlift (stiff bar) @181.

Second Cycle Options: 500mg Test E or 500mg Test E/300mg Deca
The goal of my first cycle was lean mass gain and I gained a net of 8lb (182-190lb) on 4300 calories day with 400mg Test E for 14 weeks pinned 2x/week. Originally, I had planned on going from 400mg to 600, 800, 1g seeing how I react to just test before trying other compounds, however, from several sources it seems around 500mg is the sweet spot for most. So, I was thinking of adding in 300mg Deca (have caber on hand) and seeing how this cycle goes instead of doing 500 and then next time adding the Deca. I'm all for slow and steady gains but 100mg difference doesn't seem all that big for progress. Input would be appreciated!

 

[LevButlerov]

If you want lean mass gains, then deca is definitely not the compound to use. You would be much better off with EQ - it will give you lean gains without any water retention or bloating.

 

[Mobster]

Your calories look higher than mine and I'm close to 280lbs.

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Were I in your position, Cratos, I would lean myself out to no more than 12% body fat (bf) before commencing that cycle. Beginning it at 15% would be akin to begging for estrogen-related sides. There are indeed certain guys that are able get away with carrying that much bf at the beginning of a cycle, but not many, not many at all.

 

[stevesmi]

4300 calories is way too high. i know you want to gain lean mass so you will likely gain a lot of fat too quickly and you are already 15%

even in a caloric surplus I only recommend just 500 maximum

 

[Cratos]

If you want lean mass gains, then deca is definitely not the compound to use. You would be much better off with EQ - it will give you lean gains without any water retention or bloating.

I might have had the wrong idea when I said lean gains then. The goal of the cycle was to put on substantial muscle while minimzing the fat gain aka not turning into a pig. Water weight is not an issue really since it comes off post cycle anyway. So with that mind, mass gain as the focus would EQ or Deca be a better option?

Your calories look higher than mine and I'm close to 280lbs.

Then I might have overshot that number. That's why I came here!

Were I in your position, Cratos, I would lean myself out to no more than 12% body fat (bf) before commencing that cycle. Beginning it at 15% would be akin to begging for estrogen-related sides. There are indeed certain guys that are able get away with carrying that much bf at the beginning of a cycle, but not many, not many at all.

I'll keep that in mind for all cycles. Usually I hear around 15% should be the cut off.

4300 calories is way too high. i know you want to gain lean mass so you will likely gain a lot of fat too quickly and you are already 15%

even in a caloric surplus I only recommend just 500 maximum

3800 has been my maintenance calories and seeing as I only gained a net of 8lb over 14 weeks on 4200-4300 I thought I wasn't eating enoughon cycle which is why I thought of going to 4600-4700 (800-900 surplus). I did have an aggravated "AC joint" and it limited upper body pressing and some pulling which might have been the main cause of then. The goal of this cycle was mass gain while minimizing fat, and seeing your comment and the men above it seems like it's easier to pack on fat at this point, so I'll keep 4300 as the top end of calories as that is a 500 surplus. As for compounds what would your recommendation be? The first cycle was 400mg Test E for 14 weeks. I was thinking 500mg Test E/Deca 300 for 16 weeks for this one. I also had thought of doing just 200mg Test/300 Deca but scratched that off as most people said that wouldn't be that great of a cycle after 400mg Test and you can easily just do Test at 500 instead.

 

[Girth]

Listen to the above, though it seems like you already have dismissed them. You NEED to be leaner FIRST! Side effects not only are worse when fat levels are higher, but the T you use isn't as effective with extra fat. Thus you'll need more, and then even more sides will pile on. If you are dead set on using again, then who's to say you HAVE to go higher this time. Why not just start low with T only and use this cycle to hold on to muscle while dropping a substantial amount of fat.

The curcumin will aid in resetting Leptin levels when you get down to that lower set point of body weight which is all the better. So perhaps a different approach is needed. This is a marathon man, never a sprint. Try to make it one and you're just racing faster to your grave. It will take time at that lower set point for your body to reset and recognize that you can/should be leaner. So get there, stay there, keep the curc running....and then maybe cycle 3 gets you moving upward again.

 

[Cratos]

Listen to the above, though it seems like you already have dismissed them. You NEED to be leaner FIRST! Side effects not only are worse when fat levels are higher, but the T you use isn't as effective with extra fat. Thus you'll need more, and then even more sides will pile on. If you are dead set on using again, then who's to say you HAVE to go higher this time. Why not just start low with T only and use this cycle to hold on to muscle while dropping a substantial amount of fat.

The curcumin will aid in resetting Leptin levels when you get down to that lower set point of body weight which is all the better. So perhaps a different approach is needed. This is a marathon man, never a sprint. Try to make it one and you're just racing faster to your grave. It will take time at that lower set point for your body to reset and recognize that you can/should be leaner. So get there, stay there, keep the curc running....and then maybe cycle 3 gets you moving upward again.

The only one that can be said I was dismissing was Eddie's comment about starting at 12% instead of 15%. For the rest I asked for further clarification.

I'm not racing anywhere which is why I started with a conservative first cycle. Thanks for the info.

 

[muskate]

After a testosterone only first cycle, you have 3 main options for a second cycle:
1. You could run a testosterone only cycle again. You really don't need to add a second compound.
2. You could run testosterone + an oral kick start (such as anavar, dbol or tbol).
3. You could run testosterone + an anabolic (such as EQ or deca).

I really like EQ. That would be my recommendation. EQ will give you a really nice increase in strength and vascularity with very minimal water retention. EQ is also really good for increasing endurance. Test + eq is a perfect lean mass cycle. The nice thing about EQ is that it isn't liver toxic like oral steroids are.

You can read up on EQ more here -> https://www.evolutionary.org/equipoise-boldenone-undecylenate

Here's what I recommend:

Weeks 1 - 12
testosterone e 500mg/week
EQ 300-600mg/week
aromasin 12.5mg every other day

After your cycle run the perfect PCT protocol: http://www.evolutionary.org/the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy-pct/

 

[Cratos]

After a testosterone only first cycle, you have 3 main options for a second cycle:
1. You could run a testosterone only cycle again. You really don't need to add a second compound.
2. You could run testosterone + an oral kick start (such as anavar, dbol or tbol).
3. You could run testosterone + an anabolic (such as EQ or deca).

I really like EQ. That would be my recommendation. EQ will give you a really nice increase in strength and vascularity with very minimal water retention. EQ is also really good for increasing endurance. Test + eq is a perfect lean mass cycle. The nice thing about EQ is that it isn't liver toxic like oral steroids are.

You can read up on EQ more here -> https://www.evolutionary.org/equipoise-boldenone-undecylenate

Here's what I recommend:

Weeks 1 - 12
testosterone e 500mg/week
EQ 300-600mg/week
aromasin 12.5mg every other day

After your cycle run the perfect PCT protocol: http://www.evolutionary.org/the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy-pct/

Thanks man!

 

[Cratos]

Thanks for all the reply's men. I had a lot to think about today while running errands and doing cardio. After taking everyone's advice into consideration I'll first figure out what my actual BF% is. I just ordered a caliper off of amazon prime so it should be here in 2-3 days. If my bodyfat is 15% I'll either cut for 8-10 weeks before the cycle or do shorter cut/recomp cycle. If I'm under I'll go with the Test/Eq as it's been mentioned twice already.

I don't know if I should make a separate thread about this, if so, please let know. On the topic of blasting and cruising, what are it's drawbacks other than fertility and TRT early on? Fertility should be a big deal to most people, but after the birth of my son earlier this year I got a vasectomy, so that's a concern for me. I've heard it can have negative effects on the prostate/heart but I'm assuming that would be the case if someone never really went to normal physiological ranges and stayed on the typical 200mg+ dose puts you above normal ranges and doesn't give you a chance to recover.

 

[Masonic Bodybuilder]

Too many guys are afraid of deca. You can certainly make lean gains with deca. It is the high test doses that make people retain water, no the deca. Deca aromatizes much less than test. I would keep your test at 300-500mg per week and the deca around 300-400mg per week. If you run proper supports you wont blow up like a water buffalo.

 

[Cratos]

Too many guys are afraid of deca. You can certainly make lean gains with deca. It is the high test doses that make people retain water, no the deca. Deca aromatizes much less than test. I would keep your test at 300-500mg per week and the deca around 300-400mg per week. If you run proper supports you wont blow up like a water buffalo.

Thanks for the input. Reason I was doing after deca was I started loosing hair with 400mg of Test so I don't plan ever going high with test, probably 500 max, and likely high Deca/NPP in the future.

 

[Cratos]

So, the calipers arrived and the chart says 14.6 BF%. As it is I think I need to forget about bulking as I didn't think I had gotten that fat and it seems like the consensus here. I'd rather do a cycle and cut a lot of fat while maintaining muscle than to cut then do a cycle to bulk. It seems like a smarter thing to do. @190 if I can cut 1.5lb a week for 8-9 weeks and I'd be in a good position to maintain a while before bulking. I was thiniking Test P/NPP 300mg EOD but wanted to see what everyone else thinks.