Approved Log Fatman wants to get thin and fit - Testosterone + Trenbolone + Retatrutide Cycle Journal

[shoe]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

 

[shoe]

I forgot to add, hcg on cycle twice per week from w4.

Just stood on the scales things are far more dire than I realised. 104.5kg. This means i must have put on about 6 kg in the last month.

Here is the starting point.

 

[LevButlerov]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

welcome to the EVO family @shoe sounds like you’ve got a solid plan mapped out and you know your own response to these compounds better than most. You’ve run enough cycles to understand what’s in front of you and you’ve already spotted where you want things to be different this round.
Training from week one will definitely change the look and feel of this run, and fasting combined with that stack should make weight loss more realistic. Don’t stress over the haters and don't worry you will not see them in the EVO family! everyone’s situation and tolerance is different, and you’re being upfront about yours.

Keep posting updates, that’ll keep you locked in and motivated.

I'll add a few Q/A things below we need to know-
supplements
what digestive supps you use?
digestive enzymes?
multis?
probiotics?
psyllium husk?

are you listening to our podcast? if not, you should:
https://www.evolutionary.org/podcasts/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-bodybuilding-radio/id1798623410
https://open.spotify.com/show/53q1RFTgG4h6TQHsJ4xY6Z

 

[shoe]

In terms of supps, I add a zinc and magnesium multi vit, as well as a male sexual health multi that has a little more zinc, some selenium and other supports. I dont take any additional fibre or probiotics/enzymes.

 

[Pigsy]

I started my journey much in this condition. First I would consinstate on dropping bodyfat before starting a heavy cycle. Dial in training and nutrition

 

[Mobster]

As has been said progress WITH training will be on another level.

 

[stevesmi]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

i would consider just reta right now. you can save the tren and test for the future. if you stick with the fasting, eat prepped healthy foods and run the reta you will lose a solid amount of weight over the next 6-12 months. THEN you can hit that tren @shoe

 

[BodyMonster34]

I forgot to add, hcg on cycle twice per week from w4.

Just stood on the scales things are far more dire than I realised. 104.5kg. This means i must have put on about 6 kg in the last month.

Here is the starting point.

View attachment 119075

bro what wrong with how you look. you got a nice physique. big man and good size @shoe

 

[Ulter]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

i don't agree with using steroids with your physique. but i think you are on the right track. make sure to food prep @shoe

 

[ceo]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

bros steroids not fat burners. stick to reta only. i think that is smart @shoe

 

[2Thick]

I forgot to add, hcg on cycle twice per week from w4.

Just stood on the scales things are far more dire than I realised. 104.5kg. This means i must have put on about 6 kg in the last month.

Here is the starting point.

View attachment 119075

you ideally want to get to under 15% body fat before you use steroids. BUT its your body and your choice. @shoe Let's see how you do on this.

 

[ROIDDERS]

I forgot to add, hcg on cycle twice per week from w4.

Just stood on the scales things are far more dire than I realised. 104.5kg. This means i must have put on about 6 kg in the last month.

Here is the starting point.

View attachment 119075

@shoe with your physique i don't believe its a good idea to do steroids.. YET. but its your body and your decision so i wll support you as will the EVO family. just make sure you stay flexible and dial in diet/training

 

[shoe]

bros steroids not fat burners. stick to reta only. i think that is smart @shoe

I want to start with this comment, as long as there has been internet forums there have been people claiming that steroids are not fat burners in and of themselves. This is a bit of a misconception because while there are undoubtably more effective drugs out there that will burn fat at a far greater rate, steroids are effective fat burners as well.

One of the often cited studies that floats around is this paper from 1996 that demosntrated that when comparing supraphysiological doses of testosterone that the study ground with 600mg of test per week added more fat-free mass without exercising than the placebo group did with exercising.

We know that by simply adding muscle mass that the resting metabolic rate increases, so if diet remains consistent then simply adding muscle mass is the equivalent of a drop in calories equal to the change of the resting metabolic rate. This study is not perfect, because fat free mass is not necessarily muscle, although it is fair to assume that a proportion of this mass was muscle.

We can also see from this study with anavar they gave to 60-87 year old men that simply taking 20mg per day led to reduced visceral fat, adominal fat and thigh fat while also increasing insulin sensitivity.

This 2016 study also showed that for obese men while on a low calorie diet a test group given a 10 week cycle of test undeconate faired much better with the study concluding "While dieting men receiving placebo lost both fat and lean mass, the weight loss with testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to loss of body fat."

And this comes to the crux of why I use steroids when wanting to lose weight. When you diet to lose fat, through whatever your preferred method is, a proportion of the weight you lose is muscle mass. This means that over time, as you lose weight you are reducing your metabolic efficiency. Steroids prevent the loss of muscle mass, and even while not training will put on an amount of muscle while a calorie deficit targets fat only, increasing your metabolic efficiency as you progress.

The general consensus in bodybuilding groups though, is that you must lose the fat first before then fixing the lost muscle problem once you are at x% body fat and at a particular level of training. I have never believed there is much evidence for this and it comes down to a little bit of broscience.

There are so few people out there that would run a cycle with very minimal (or no training) that there really is very little in the way of actual evidence in the community about exactly what happens when someone who is not in shape at the start, does a big cycle and doesnt train at all.

When was the last time you saw a log of a steroid cycle without any training? They dont exist.

If I didnt have a clear weight target this time around I would log the whole thing just to demonstrate the effect.

I can however provide some results from my previous cycle that might raise some eyebrows.

Below is my weight tracking for when I started my last cycle. You can see the initial uptick as water weight comes on, and then you can see, across a period of about 6 weeks, a drop of nearly 8kg from the peak without one single day of training.

In fact I can show you as well, I did not even join a gym until a month after the last point on that chart.

After this I dropped further

This was done simply through a combination of steroids and intermittent fasting 20 off 4 on and a longer 60 hour fast.

Apart from the fasting my diet remained unchanged, my rule was zero calories during the fasting hours and whatever I like in the eating hours.

And here is where I caveat this whole post again, because while there is absolutely no doubt that steroids by themselves are very effective fat destroyers, there are far safer ways to lose fat that dont mess with your endocrine system. The gyno I mentioned in my first post is just one of the many issues that can pop up.

I am confident saying that most people that pick up a vial have no idea of what those hormones are about to do to the normal processes in the body, the checks and balances that are in place that are about to be thrown into chaos. Even those who do the right amount of research prior to beginning a cycle and who go into it with the correct AIs and serms and sarms and hcg and do everything perfect from start to end do so without understanding the mechanics behind why. I am not pretending to fully understand these myself and there are people on these boards who are far more knowledgeable.

I would not, and do not, recommend steroids for fat loss alone.

And finally, here is the other side of the coin, what happens when you get off cycle, and still dont change diet, but stop fasting?

The truly smart among us would maintain their new weight, or at least continue fasting.

Yours truly is not that smart.

 

[LevButlerov]

I want to start with this comment, as long as there has been internet forums there have been people claiming that steroids are not fat burners in and of themselves. This is a bit of a misconception because while there are undoubtably more effective drugs out there that will burn fat at a far greater rate, steroids are effective fat burners as well.

One of the often cited studies that floats around is this paper from 1996 that demosntrated that when comparing supraphysiological doses of testosterone that the study ground with 600mg of test per week added more fat-free mass without exercising than the placebo group did with exercising.

We know that by simply adding muscle mass that the resting metabolic rate increases, so if diet remains consistent then simply adding muscle mass is the equivalent of a drop in calories equal to the change of the resting metabolic rate. This study is not perfect, because fat free mass is not necessarily muscle, although it is fair to assume that a proportion of this mass was muscle.

We can also see from this study with anavar they gave to 60-87 year old men that simply taking 20mg per day led to reduced visceral fat, adominal fat and thigh fat while also increasing insulin sensitivity.

This 2016 study also showed that for obese men while on a low calorie diet a test group given a 10 week cycle of test undeconate faired much better with the study concluding "While dieting men receiving placebo lost both fat and lean mass, the weight loss with testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to loss of body fat."

And this comes to the crux of why I use steroids when wanting to lose weight. When you diet to lose fat, through whatever your preferred method is, a proportion of the weight you lose is muscle mass. This means that over time, as you lose weight you are reducing your metabolic efficiency. Steroids prevent the loss of muscle mass, and even while not training will put on an amount of muscle while a calorie deficit targets fat only, increasing your metabolic efficiency as you progress.

The general consensus in bodybuilding groups though, is that you must lose the fat first before then fixing the lost muscle problem once you are at x% body fat and at a particular level of training. I have never believed there is much evidence for this and it comes down to a little bit of broscience.

There are so few people out there that would run a cycle with very minimal (or no training) that there really is very little in the way of actual evidence in the community about exactly what happens when someone who is not in shape at the start, does a big cycle and doesnt train at all.

When was the last time you saw a log of a steroid cycle without any training? They dont exist.

If I didnt have a clear weight target this time around I would log the whole thing just to demonstrate the effect.

I can however provide some results from my previous cycle that might raise some eyebrows.

Below is my weight tracking for when I started my last cycle. You can see the initial uptick as water weight comes on, and then you can see, across a period of about 6 weeks, a drop of nearly 8kg from the peak without one single day of training.

View attachment 119246

In fact I can show you as well, I did not even join a gym until a month after the last point on that chart.

View attachment 119247

After this I dropped further

View attachment 119248


This was done simply through a combination of steroids and intermittent fasting 20 off 4 on and a longer 60 hour fast.

Apart from the fasting my diet remained unchanged, my rule was zero calories during the fasting hours and whatever I like in the eating hours.

And here is where I caveat this whole post again, because while there is absolutely no doubt that steroids by themselves are very effective fat destroyers, there are far safer ways to lose fat that dont mess with your endocrine system. The gyno I mentioned in my first post is just one of the many issues that can pop up.

I am confident saying that most people that pick up a vial have no idea of what those hormones are about to do to the normal processes in the body, the checks and balances that are in place that are about to be thrown into chaos. Even those who do the right amount of research prior to beginning a cycle and who go into it with the correct AIs and serms and sarms and hcg and do everything perfect from start to end do so without understanding the mechanics behind why. I am not pretending to fully understand these myself and there are people on these boards who are far more knowledgeable.

I would not, and do not, recommend steroids for fat loss alone.

And finally, here is the other side of the coin, what happens when you get off cycle, and still dont change diet, but stop fasting?

The truly smart among us would maintain their new weight, or at least continue fasting.

Yours truly is not that smart.

View attachment 119255

Don’t be so negative toward the guys giving input, they’re just trying to share what they’ve seen and help you sort through it. Nobody here is claiming steroids are magic or that you should rely on them alone, but the point stands that they do protect muscle and that makes fat loss more efficient. The studies you laid out back that up, and your own log shows results most people would raise an eyebrow at. You’re right to add the caveat about risks, because that part matters just as much as the results. What you proved is that even with no training, the compounds shift body composition in a way that diet alone wouldn’t. That doesn’t mean everyone should do it, but it’s worth recognizing the effect instead of dismissing it outright. Keep showing the data like you did and it helps the conversation instead of turning it into a fight. At the end of the day, people come here to learn from each other’s wins and mistakes. @shoe Remember, EVO family is here to support you not argue with you.

 

[shoe]

Don’t be so negative toward the guys giving input, they’re just trying to share what they’ve seen and help you sort through it. Nobody here is claiming steroids are magic or that you should rely on them alone, but the point stands that they do protect muscle and that makes fat loss more efficient. The studies you laid out back that up, and your own log shows results most people would raise an eyebrow at. You’re right to add the caveat about risks, because that part matters just as much as the results. What you proved is that even with no training, the compounds shift body composition in a way that diet alone wouldn’t. That doesn’t mean everyone should do it, but it’s worth recognizing the effect instead of dismissing it outright. Keep showing the data like you did and it helps the conversation instead of turning it into a fight. At the end of the day, people come here to learn from each other’s wins and mistakes. @shoe Remember, EVO family is here to support you not argue with you.

Oh I should have mentioned, I am 100% in agreeance, and dont want to come across negative at all, and I appreciate every comment that has come through. The reason I chose this board is because unlike forums I used to read in the past, the positivity and support that is evident here is such a fresh change. I come from an academic background and sometimes my writing style comes across argumentative when addressing a point, but I encourage and enjoy debate.

In essence I agree with the sentiments of everyone that posted. If you are looking to do juice you really should be at those levels to begin with and if I had a chubby mate that had never set foot in the gym ask me how to best lose that fat I would not even mention gear until long after he had some experience doing things naturally.

I also should mention that I appreciate this site in the openness of information, and having approved and vetted sources. The inherent risk we take injecting substances made from largely anonymous sources is incredible, this time around I am using ugloz and I have used in the past with great success. I really appreciate their testing and openness, it helps immensely. After doing this for this many years I have been burnt on a number of occasions. Even my last cycle I got caught out and only got a partial order fulfilled from Silverback before it seems they ran into trouble.

 

[LevButlerov]

Oh I should have mentioned, I am 100% in agreeance, and dont want to come across negative at all, and I appreciate every comment that has come through. The reason I chose this board is because unlike forums I used to read in the past, the positivity and support that is evident here is such a fresh change. I come from an academic background and sometimes my writing style comes across argumentative when addressing a point, but I encourage and enjoy debate.

In essence I agree with the sentiments of everyone that posted. If you are looking to do juice you really should be at those levels to begin with and if I had a chubby mate that had never set foot in the gym ask me how to best lose that fat I would not even mention gear until long after he had some experience doing things naturally.

I also should mention that I appreciate this site in the openness of information, and having approved and vetted sources. The inherent risk we take injecting substances made from largely anonymous sources is incredible, this time around I am using ugloz and I have used in the past with great success. I really appreciate their testing and openness, it helps immensely. After doing this for this many years I have been burnt on a number of occasions. Even my last cycle I got caught out and only got a partial order fulfilled from Silverback before it seems they ran into trouble.

Good reply and glad you cleared that up. It’s easy for tone to get misread on boards, so explaining your background helps people see where you’re coming from. Debate is fine as long as it’s respectful, and you’ve shown you’re open to different angles which is what makes these threads useful. Your point about not mentioning gear to someone untrained is spot on, that foundation work matters more than anything early on. Sharing your own supplier experiences also helps others, because too many guys jump in blind and don’t know the risks until it’s too late. @UGL OZ is the GOAT and #1 in the EVO Aussie family no question about it, so it's good he's in this convo. The fact you’ve been burnt a few times shows how important it is to stick with tested sources.

Keep bringing your perspective here, it balances out the mix between research and real world trial. That’s the kind of discussion that makes EVO family stronger. @shoe

 

[shoe]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

 

[Pigsy]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Great touchdown there

 

[ballin2504]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

@shoe welcome to the forum man. We’re really glad to have you. I agree with you on the tren. It can definitely mess with your mind. I’ve gotten to the age where I don’t think I’ll run it anymore.

 

[UGL OZ]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Always appreciate a gear haul pic! Thank you for posting brother, enjoy

AJ

 

[texas.redneck]

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

You could save some wear and tear on your body and do more hypertrophy 8-20 reps and expand out on some machines and don't grind too much on traditional deadlifts and squats. That's what I did recently and I feel good.

I would drop traditional deadlifts completely for several reasons but primarily because
(1) you are 40 now, so just save the wear on your body and CNS and
(2) traditional deadlifts don't do much for hypertrophy because it's just such a tiny range of motion. Basically, the juice isn't worth the squeeze on traditional deadlift if we are talking about hypertrophy.
If you still have goals and it motivates you to pull 4 or 5 plates on each side then I get that.

I"m 46 now and I remember my late thirties and I was super judgy of the 45-55 year old men I saw just over doing machines and such while I was still grinding on squats and deadlifts. There was one particular group of 3 men I always saw on my lunch break, pretty good physiques, and they literally told me back then, yeah we like to do bodybuilding now because squats and deadlifts were too hard on our bodies. I just nodded like yeah whatever pussies. and now I'm 46 and that's literally what I'm doing because my back is too trashed to squat and deadlift anymore. hahaha.

 

[ceo]

I want to start with this comment, as long as there has been internet forums there have been people claiming that steroids are not fat burners in and of themselves. This is a bit of a misconception because while there are undoubtably more effective drugs out there that will burn fat at a far greater rate, steroids are effective fat burners as well.

One of the often cited studies that floats around is this paper from 1996 that demosntrated that when comparing supraphysiological doses of testosterone that the study ground with 600mg of test per week added more fat-free mass without exercising than the placebo group did with exercising.

We know that by simply adding muscle mass that the resting metabolic rate increases, so if diet remains consistent then simply adding muscle mass is the equivalent of a drop in calories equal to the change of the resting metabolic rate. This study is not perfect, because fat free mass is not necessarily muscle, although it is fair to assume that a proportion of this mass was muscle.

We can also see from this study with anavar they gave to 60-87 year old men that simply taking 20mg per day led to reduced visceral fat, adominal fat and thigh fat while also increasing insulin sensitivity.

This 2016 study also showed that for obese men while on a low calorie diet a test group given a 10 week cycle of test undeconate faired much better with the study concluding "While dieting men receiving placebo lost both fat and lean mass, the weight loss with testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to loss of body fat."

And this comes to the crux of why I use steroids when wanting to lose weight. When you diet to lose fat, through whatever your preferred method is, a proportion of the weight you lose is muscle mass. This means that over time, as you lose weight you are reducing your metabolic efficiency. Steroids prevent the loss of muscle mass, and even while not training will put on an amount of muscle while a calorie deficit targets fat only, increasing your metabolic efficiency as you progress.

The general consensus in bodybuilding groups though, is that you must lose the fat first before then fixing the lost muscle problem once you are at x% body fat and at a particular level of training. I have never believed there is much evidence for this and it comes down to a little bit of broscience.

There are so few people out there that would run a cycle with very minimal (or no training) that there really is very little in the way of actual evidence in the community about exactly what happens when someone who is not in shape at the start, does a big cycle and doesnt train at all.

When was the last time you saw a log of a steroid cycle without any training? They dont exist.

If I didnt have a clear weight target this time around I would log the whole thing just to demonstrate the effect.

I can however provide some results from my previous cycle that might raise some eyebrows.

Below is my weight tracking for when I started my last cycle. You can see the initial uptick as water weight comes on, and then you can see, across a period of about 6 weeks, a drop of nearly 8kg from the peak without one single day of training.

View attachment 119246

In fact I can show you as well, I did not even join a gym until a month after the last point on that chart.

View attachment 119247

After this I dropped further

View attachment 119248


This was done simply through a combination of steroids and intermittent fasting 20 off 4 on and a longer 60 hour fast.

Apart from the fasting my diet remained unchanged, my rule was zero calories during the fasting hours and whatever I like in the eating hours.

And here is where I caveat this whole post again, because while there is absolutely no doubt that steroids by themselves are very effective fat destroyers, there are far safer ways to lose fat that dont mess with your endocrine system. The gyno I mentioned in my first post is just one of the many issues that can pop up.

I am confident saying that most people that pick up a vial have no idea of what those hormones are about to do to the normal processes in the body, the checks and balances that are in place that are about to be thrown into chaos. Even those who do the right amount of research prior to beginning a cycle and who go into it with the correct AIs and serms and sarms and hcg and do everything perfect from start to end do so without understanding the mechanics behind why. I am not pretending to fully understand these myself and there are people on these boards who are far more knowledgeable.

I would not, and do not, recommend steroids for fat loss alone.

And finally, here is the other side of the coin, what happens when you get off cycle, and still dont change diet, but stop fasting?

The truly smart among us would maintain their new weight, or at least continue fasting.

Yours truly is not that smart.

View attachment 119255

bros we 100% got your back. all i saying is simpler to just focus on fat burning first with the reta. then once you leaner then hit the sauce hard. but let see what happens doing it your way.

 

[shoe]

@shoe welcome to the forum man. We’re really glad to have you. I agree with you on the tren. It can definitely mess with your mind. I’ve gotten to the age where I don’t think I’ll run it anymore.

Thanks bro, glad to be here

You could save some wear and tear on your body and do more hypertrophy 8-20 reps and expand out on some machines and don't grind too much on traditional deadlifts and squats. That's what I did recently and I feel good.

I would drop traditional deadlifts completely for several reasons but primarily because
(1) you are 40 now, so just save the wear on your body and CNS and
(2) traditional deadlifts don't do much for hypertrophy because it's just such a tiny range of motion. Basically, the juice isn't worth the squeeze on traditional deadlift if we are talking about hypertrophy.
If you still have goals and it motivates you to pull 4 or 5 plates on each side then I get that.

I"m 46 now and I remember my late thirties and I was super judgy of the 45-55 year old men I saw just over doing machines and such while I was still grinding on squats and deadlifts. There was one particular group of 3 men I always saw on my lunch break, pretty good physiques, and they literally told me back then, yeah we like to do bodybuilding now because squats and deadlifts were too hard on our bodies. I just nodded like yeah whatever pussies. and now I'm 46 and that's literally what I'm doing because my back is too trashed to squat and deadlift anymore. hahaha.

This is an interesting thought. I have not considered not doing deads. I did not notice for the brief interval I was training last year that I was a bit more creaky in the joints than I remembered. I also remember getting up on the pull ups and struggling to bust out 2. One of my secret side quest goals this year was to hopefully get back into a semblance of strength. I know I wont be doing weighted wide grips again anytime soon, but I should be able to get through a couple sets of 10 without trouble.

The deads I had always thought of as less adding to size but more general core strength as support for other lifts, but maybe it is time to focus on isolation on machines, I will think on it.

bros we 100% got your back. all i saying is simpler to just focus on fat burning first with the reta. then once you leaner then hit the sauce hard. but let see what happens doing it your way.

Thanks brother, didnt mean to call you out so hard yesterday

--

I was very pleased to see the little package in the mail yesterday because it meant I could stick to my preferred Mon and Fri jab days. Juice was smooth.

I always forget how much I hate melanotan 2. I screwed up my intial dose reporting too. I do 500ug. Just opening the box and seeing the vial gave me nausea, but it is in.

It is hard to tell if there was any nausea from the reta, since it went in at the same time as the mt2 but I was farting like a gorilla all night which is new.

I also have a tightness in the back of my throat this morning, a little like you get with nausea but without feeling as though need to be sick. Just a tightness sitting there.

 

[LevButlerov]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Love this touchdown from @UGL OZ TEAM UGL OZ is growing! @shoe

 

[stevesmi]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

that is great you guys have good sources there. that is fast as hell. @shoe want to see how this one goes

 

[Ulter]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

that is good looking stuff. seen this posted before. this sparta stuff is good i hear @shoe

 

[Mobster]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Now how quick is that!

 

[shoe]

Now how quick is that!

Faster than amazon prime.

I remember back in the bad old days having to spend 20 hours on a forum on your very best behaviour just to get an in, to get a list, to print a bunch of product codes, to go to the bank and withdraw cash, to post off to a mysterious address........

...and then wait and hope.

I for one, love and welcome our new technological overlords

 

[ceo]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

@shoe bros you are looking great on this gear. this is a nice touchdown! i gotta love this

 

[2Thick]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Is some good looking gear. @shoe It's very important especially with your situation that you're using Proper gear.. toxic gear can really cause blood pressure issues.

 

[ROIDDERS]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

this is incredible for sure man. i love this. thatt sparta gear looks jucey!

 

[Noah Wixx]

Tren at that current bodyfat going off your profile picture is a huge mistake you haven't built a base yet to work with, and 600mg tren is way to high of a dose, you need to really look at this and reconsider

 

[RoySimpson]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

@shoe Awesome TD right here!

 

[shoe]

Tren at that current bodyfat going off your profile picture is a huge mistake you haven't built a base yet to work with, and 600mg tren is way to high of a dose, you need to really look at this and reconsider

Thanks for your comment, I disagree, but am also genuinely interested in why you think this is the case? I understand that this is the prevailing thought on all bb forums, and has been at least as long as I have been reading them, but have never understood why this is the case.

My own personal theory is this begun as a method of harm reduction in the community where someone that is overweight sees the effect that steroids can have on gym performance and body shape/mass and decides that jumping into tren would be the quickest and easiest path, without considering the associated risks.

Earlier I said that this board is very positive in comparison to others out there, and is in a different world to boards in the past. And it is totally true, and I appreciate not having this thread flamed into the guts of hell at day 1.

I remember the first time doing a basic 12w 500mg test e being too paranoid to post on any forum to check if everything was ok, because i would read through almost every post and see the replies would all be 'you havent hit genetic potential', 'you need to lower your bf %', 'you need to do more research', 'you havent read the stickied post', 'you are too young' etc etc

I understood where the forum peeps were coming from but these guys asking the questions are going to go out and get their gear and do it anyway. Many of them decide that there is little point asking anything at all, because of the risk of being flamed. I know this is true at least to an extent, although I actually did all of these things at the time, I spent hours and hours going down each rabbit hole and path and tried to perfect each cycle and pct.

My gym buddy though who had been training for much longer than me at the time, would look at the posts I linked him and say that everyone on those boards was an ahole, that his mate at the gym had done it for years and would just ask him for a hook up and what to do.

So when I hear a statement like this, I am genuinely interested in why you say it and what there is to back it up. I dont disagree that 600mg is a strong dose. It is however a dose that I have run many times before, at different levels of training and fitness without major side effects, and that increased doses result in increased outcomes.

From my side I will provide some evidence that may challenge your comment, at least from the perspective of body fat.

In 2016 the Journal of Endocrinology published a paper with the goal of looking at the effect of Trenbolone on obesity, in particular in testosterone deficient subjects suffering from metabolic sydrome. We know that being overweight and obese are some of the defining attributes of metabolic syndrome, and that being obese can cause a reduction of testosterone.

The study "investigated TREN's effects on body composition and cardiometabolic risk factors; and its tissue-selective effects on the cardiovascular system, liver and prostate." It separated rats into groups where they ate high sucrose and fat diets, and tested a control group against a testosterone group and a tren group.

The study showed that on high sucrose and fat diets rats without test or tren gained significant fat. Rats on test gained more fat than the control and the tren group (but significantly less fat than the androgen-free group).

The tren group eating high fat and high sugar foods, although gaining some fat, gained only slightly more than the control group on a normal diet. And although a small amount of total fat was gained, there was actually a reduction in visceral fat, even compared to the control, and in direct contrast to other groups.

The study also found a reduction in both cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the tren group compared to others, as well as significant differences in insulin sensitivity.

The study concluded 'TREN treatment elicits favorable changes in body composition (specifically, in the reduction of visceral adiposity), lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, and myocardial tolerance to I-R in TEST-deficient male rats with the MetS. In comparison with TREN, the therapeutic effects of TEST were consistently less pronounced in these animals.' and 'We propose that TRT may have contraindications in TEST-deficient males with obesity-related MetS, and that selective AR modulation with TREN may elicit a preferable benefit to risk ratio in these populations.'

Three of the takeaway highlights of the study stated;

• Trenbolone treatment significantly reduces adiposity.
• Trenbolone treatment improves circulating lipid profile and insulin sensitivity.
• No adverse cardiac or hepatic effects were observed with trenbolone treatment.
• Trenbolone may prove to be an effective and safe weight loss agent in other models.

This raises the general question of whether tren is more beneficial than test for obese people on TRT and seems contradictory to your comment that tren is bad to take because of my current bf %.

 

[2G2B]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.
Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

Keen to see the transformation unfold

Something about the headless photo edit haunts me but a fun change from all the black squares.

 

[shoe]

Keen to see the transformation unfold

Something about the headless photo edit haunts me but a fun change from all the black squares.

haha for sure I almost went back and put a smiley on instead when I did it

To me though, it is no where near as horrifying as the neon white skin

 

[Noah Wixx]

Thanks for your comment, I disagree, but am also genuinely interested in why you think this is the case? I understand that this is the prevailing thought on all bb forums, and has been at least as long as I have been reading them, but have never understood why this is the case.

My own personal theory is this begun as a method of harm reduction in the community where someone that is overweight sees the effect that steroids can have on gym performance and body shape/mass and decides that jumping into tren would be the quickest and easiest path, without considering the associated risks.

Earlier I said that this board is very positive in comparison to others out there, and is in a different world to boards in the past. And it is totally true, and I appreciate not having this thread flamed into the guts of hell at day 1.

I remember the first time doing a basic 12w 500mg test e being too paranoid to post on any forum to check if everything was ok, because i would read through almost every post and see the replies would all be 'you havent hit genetic potential', 'you need to lower your bf %', 'you need to do more research', 'you havent read the stickied post', 'you are too young' etc etc

I understood where the forum peeps were coming from but these guys asking the questions are going to go out and get their gear and do it anyway. Many of them decide that there is little point asking anything at all, because of the risk of being flamed. I know this is true at least to an extent, although I actually did all of these things at the time, I spent hours and hours going down each rabbit hole and path and tried to perfect each cycle and pct.

My gym buddy though who had been training for much longer than me at the time, would look at the posts I linked him and say that everyone on those boards was an ahole, that his mate at the gym had done it for years and would just ask him for a hook up and what to do.

So when I hear a statement like this, I am genuinely interested in why you say it and what there is to back it up. I dont disagree that 600mg is a strong dose. It is however a dose that I have run many times before, at different levels of training and fitness without major side effects, and that increased doses result in increased outcomes.

From my side I will provide some evidence that may challenge your comment, at least from the perspective of body fat.

In 2016 the Journal of Endocrinology published a paper with the goal of looking at the effect of Trenbolone on obesity, in particular in testosterone deficient subjects suffering from metabolic sydrome. We know that being overweight and obese are some of the defining attributes of metabolic syndrome, and that being obese can cause a reduction of testosterone.

The study "investigated TREN's effects on body composition and cardiometabolic risk factors; and its tissue-selective effects on the cardiovascular system, liver and prostate." It separated rats into groups where they ate high sucrose and fat diets, and tested a control group against a testosterone group and a tren group. The study showed that on high sucrose and fat diets rats without test or tren gained mass (and significant fat), rats on test gained more fat than the control and the tren group (but significantly less than the androgen-free group), and the tren group gained only slightly more fat on a high fat, high sucrose diet compared to the control gorup on a normal diet.

The tren group also lost visceral fat over the study, despite being on a high sucrose, high fat diet when compared to all groups, including the control.

The study also found a reduction in both cholesterol and Triglyceride levels compared to all groups, including the control and testosterone groups. There were also significant differences in the tren group in insulin sensitivity.

The study concluded 'TREN treatment elicits favorable changes in body composition (specifically, in the reduction of visceral adiposity), lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, and myocardial tolerance to I-R in TEST-deficient male rats with the MetS. In comparison with TREN, the therapeutic effects of TEST were consistently less pronounced in these animals.' and 'We propose that TRT may have contraindications in TEST-deficient males with obesity-related MetS, and that selective AR modulation with TREN may elicit a preferable benefit to risk ratio in these populations.'

Three of the takeaway highlights of the study stated;

• Trenbolone treatment significantly reduces adiposity.
• Trenbolone treatment improves circulating lipid profile and insulin sensitivity.
• No adverse cardiac or hepatic effects were observed with trenbolone treatment.
• Trenbolone may prove to be an effective and safe weight loss agent in other models.

This raises the general question of whether tren is more beneficial than test for obese people on TRT and seems contradictory to your comment that tren is bad to take because of my current bf %.

Trenbolone is one of the most coveted anabolic steroids among bodybuilders due to its sheer power at building lean muscle mass while simultaneously burning fat (without causing water retention).

Due to trenbolone’s versatility, it can be successfully utilized during cutting or bulking cycles, making it one of the most aesthetically pleasing AAS on the market.
Although trenbolone may not cause excessive increases in overall weight gain, its ability to add lean muscle tissue is only rivaled by the likes of Dianabol and Anadrol in our experience.
However, as with any drug, if there are notable benefits, there are also equally notable drawbacks, and trenbolone is not an exception.

Trenbolone acetate may be the most potent steroid on the market for rapidly transforming a user’s physique; however, we have found it to also be among the most harmful (both physiologically and psychologically).

Note: Different esters of trenbolone (such as acetate and enanthate) will produce the same side effects, as they are essentially the same compound. However, due to the varying length of esters and serum testosterone levels peaking at different speeds, the timing of side effects will occur at different stages.

For example, some of our patients experience side effects very early into a cycle of trenbolone acetate, whereas it may take 1-2 weeks later to notice the same level of effects on enanthate (due to it being a longer ester).

The most damaging side effects of trenbolone we see are alterations in cholesterol, causing an increase in cardiovascular strain and left ventricular hypertrophy.

We have seen regular use of trenbolone and other anabolic steroids result in cardiomyopathy (heart disease). Thus, users with a genetic predisposition to cardiovascular implications should avoid trenbolone.

Such measures will not completely reverse cardiovascular strain from trenbolone; however, we find they notably reduce the risk of atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries).

Trenbolone should not be stacked with any oral steroids, such as Dianabol, Anadrol, or Winstrol, due to their devastating effects on cholesterol levels. In our experience, orals are particularly damaging to the heart, as they stimulate hepatic lipase in the liver, an enzyme responsible for decreasing HDL cholesterol (the healthy cholesterol that reduces plaque buildup).

All anabolic steroids will suppress natural testosterone production, as the administration of exogenous testosterone causes the body to cease endogenous production.

Thus, when a person cycles steroids, we see their overall testosterone levels shoot up, but their natural testosterone levels plummet as the body detects excessive hormone levels.

This causes a transient effect that ultimately leads to a crash post-cycle when trenbolone injections cease.

Due to the potent nature of trenbolone, we often see users fully shut down post-cycle due to trenbolone severely affecting the HPTA. Thus, natural testosterone levels can take several weeks or months to recover to standard levels, with the duration depending on:

The dosage taken
Length of the cycle
PCT (post-cycle therapy) protocol, which can accelerate this recovery period.

During this transition period, where testosterone levels are shut down, our patients have experienced depression, erectile dysfunction, diminished libido, low energy levels, and decreased overall well-being.

Aromatization, or the stimulation of estrogen receptors, will not occur on trenbolone. Thus, some assume that trenbolone cannot cause gynecomastia, which is not accurate.

Estrogen is just one female sex hormone that, if high enough, can cause the expansion of female breast tissue in males. We have found that trenbolone significantly raises progesterone, which is also a female hormone responsible for regulating menstrual cycles in women. When raised to excess levels in men, lactation can occur, resulting in puffy nipples and potentially gynecomastia.

Progesterone essentially mimics the effects of high estrogen levels, with progestins having a stimulatory effect on tissue in the mammary glands.

We see this effect worsen if trenbolone is stacked with estrogenic steroids, such as Dianabol, testosterone, or Anadrol, due to an even greater dominance of female sex hormones and further negative feedback inhibition of testosterone.

AIs block the conversion of testosterone into estrogen, which can worsen cholesterol levels. However, SERMs work by directly inhibiting estrogen’s effects in the mammary glands without affecting aromatization.

The downside to AIs is that they can worsen blood pressure, as adequate levels of estrogen are needed for healthy cholesterol ratios. Thus, in general, SERMs are a more optimal choice to prevent gynecomastia, as they do not negatively affect blood lipids.

However, the two most popular SERMs, Nolvadex and Clomid, should not be taken with trenbolone, as they can increase progesterone levels, worsening tren-induced gynecomastia in our experience.

Thus, it would be appropriate to have an AI ready in case the nipples begin to get puffy or swollen. We find that taking an AI before this point is often unnecessary and will only exacerbate the already serious cardiovascular strain that trenbolone poses.

Two popular AIs that bodybuilders take are:

Letrozole (Femara)
Anastrozole (Arimidex)
Acne Vulgaris
Trenbolone is highly androgenic, which can cause excess sebum production, resulting in oily skin and acne vulgaris.

We have seen sensitive users, who naturally have high levels of sebum production, experience severe cystic acne, which can take the appearance of golf balls under the skin.
We have experienced success with products such as Accutane (isotretinoin) for clearing up acne in patients on cycle.
Accutane is designed to shrink the sebaceous glands, reducing sebum buildup and thus preventing the pores from blocking.

Research has shown that 20 mg/day of Accutane is a highly effective and safe treatment for moderate-to-severe acne (1). There is also evidence that Accutane possesses long-term effects, helping to prevent acne breakouts in the future.

Male Pattern Baldness
Trenbolone possesses one of the highest androgenic ratings of the anabolic steroid family, at 500.

Such androgenicity is destructive to hair follicles due to elevated levels of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), causing receding and thinning on the scalp.

DHT causes hair follicle miniaturization and scalp inflammation; however, the severity of shedding and total hair loss will be determined by a person’s genetics.

Anabolic steroids (particularly trenbolone) will accelerate hair loss if taken frequently over a significant period of time.

AAS taken in the short term may cause some thinning or recession; however, we find this often reverses post-cycle when DHT levels regulate back to normal.

Note: A few of our patients with strong genetics can take high doses of androgenic steroids (such as trenbolone) for years and still not experience any notable hair loss. Thus, this side effect is largely determined by genetics.

Bodybuilders sometimes use 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor medications, such as finasteride, in a bid to block the conversion of testosterone into DHT and thus decrease follicle damage on the scalp.
However, we have seen that reducing DHT levels can have a negative effect on muscle hypertrophy and strength gains during a cycle. Research also suggests that DHT is a superior muscle-building hormone to testosterone (2). This is due to it increasing amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in fast-contracting muscle fibers (whereas testosterone does not).
Visceral Fat
Many anabolic steroids burn subcutaneous fat but increase visceral fat levels.

Subcutaneous fat is what you can see externally, whereas visceral fat surrounds the internal organs under the abdomen and isn’t visible to the naked eye.

High visceral fat levels can cause a bloated or protruding look to the midsection, even if a person has a low level of subcutaneous body fat. The pregnant belly look that is common among IFBB pro bodybuilders is due to high visceral fat caused by the administration of estrogenic steroids.

Anxiety and Depression
Trenbolone’s side effects aren’t only physical but also mental, with our patients commonly reporting feeling:

Irritable
Anxious
Paranoid
Depressed
Such side effects can be linked to trenbolone having a stimulating effect on the central nervous system, causing an increase in adrenaline output and thus shifting trenbolone users into a state of fight-or-flight mode.

Such a chemical alteration can result in individuals perceiving normal, everyday situations as threats. This has triggered panic attacks and bouts of depression in our patients due to the depletion of serotonin in the brain.

It is unclear why trenbolone has a more notable stimulating effect than other anabolic steroids. This is one of the reasons why some bodybuilders avoid this steroid for optimal mental well-being.

Trenbolone users may benefit from eating a diet rich in L-tryptophan to help counteract high adrenaline levels. L-tryptophan is an amino acid that has sedative properties (3), helping to calm the nervous system. Not only have we seen this subdue anxiety and depression, but it also helps bodybuilders fall asleep easier and improves their sleep quality on trenbolone.

Foods high in L-tryptophan are:

Whole milk
Turkey
Chicken
Eggs
Steak
Tuna
All of the above are also high-quality protein sources that will assist with protein synthesis and muscle recovery.

Note: We have found that eating copious amounts of carbohydrates in the same meal as your L-tryptophan food source is important, as carbohydrates deplete all amino acid content in the bloodstream, excluding L-tryptophan. This significantly improves the absorption of L-tryptophan, as there is no longer any competition, thus improving its biological value and sedative effects.

The combination of L-tryptophan and carbohydrates is the reason why so many people take a (seemingly involuntary) nap shortly after annual Thanksgiving meals, being the result of vast amounts of turkey and potatoes.

Tren Cough
Trenbolone is notorious for causing respiratory distress, known as tren cough, upon administration. This is essentially a violent fit of dry coughing, typically lasting several seconds.

other injectable steroids); however, one theory suggests androgenic properties to be the main culprit.

Trenbolone’s potent androgenic nature can cause vasoconstriction due to the activation of inflammatory lipids known as prostaglandins.

Vasoconstriction of the bronchus’ muscular wall (in the lungs) may trigger such coughing immediately upon injection.

Although our patients have also reported coughing following Deca Durabolin or testosterone injections, it is less common than with trenbolone.

Trenbolone side effects are sometimes inconsistent, with some users experiencing virtually all of the above, while others only experience mild adverse effects.

The severity of side effects will also depend on the dosage and cycle length. A typical trenbolone cycle consists of dosages ranging from 150 to 225 mg/week in an 8- to 10-week cycle. Thus, dosages or cycles exceeding this present additional risk.

It is also important to note that if trenbolone is stacked with other anabolic steroids, its side effects will be amplified

Thus, we strongly advise readers not to stack trenbolone with any compounds that have deleterious effects on cholesterol levels and the heart. These include (but are not limited to):

Anadrol
Dianabol
Superdrol
Winstrol

Trenbolone is generally only taken by advanced bodybuilders who have built up a tolerance to various anabolic steroids before administering it. Such caution by the bodybuilding community is wise, with our lab results and relevant medical research concerning this compound showing it to be highly toxic.


Dr. O’Connor has over 20 years of experience treating men and women with a history of anabolic steroid, SARM, and PED use. He has been a board-certified MD since 2005 and provides guidance on harm reduction methodologies.

Dr. O’Connor is a clinical instructor at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine and has been featured in various media publications, including Generation Iron, Dr. Phil, National Geographic, The New York Times, Muscle and Fitness, and others.

Dr. O’Connor also co-authored the largest survey on anabolic steroid use, involving 2,385 men, published in the peer-reviewed American Journal of Men’s Health.

 

[Noah Wixx]

@shoe Absolutely we are different from most the toxic places you find on the internet in regards with bodybuilding and fitness, i mean no hate or ill will or trying to be negative, i try to be real and transparent with people, i can only go off your profile picture you carry alot of fatty tissue in the chest and stomach areas, thats a bad start with running tren out of the gate, when you read the article i posted it will make mlre sense, not to mention unless youve been tested you have no idea how much visceral fat you carry around your organs the fat you cant see, tren with testosterone can cause a build up of build and retention around the heart and other organs thus increasing hypertension and blood pressure, as well as gyno with how much fat you already carry in the chest, i just feel in the end your jumping into tren way to soon without enough experience to do so, stevesmi told me one time once he used tren it killed it for any and all other steroids for him because of the tren effects and what it does, he told me start slow try and experiment with other compounds first and gain experience and after you have then run tren when your trying to peak your physique after building a strong base, you are putting yourself at way higher risks when holding more bodyfat then u should be while attempting to run a tren cycle 600mg is absolutely not a beginner or starter dose, just be careful, in the end you do what you feel is best man, im just trying to give you a difference in prospective and view points.

 

[shoe]

@shoe Absolutely we are different from most the toxic places you find on the internet in regards with bodybuilding and fitness, i mean no hate or ill will or trying to be negative, i try to be real and transparent with people, i can only go off your profile picture you carry alot of fatty tissue in the chest and stomach areas, thats a bad start with running tren out of the gate ...

i just feel in the end your jumping into tren way to soon without enough experience to do so, stevesmi told me one time once he used tren it killed it for any and all other steroids for him because of the tren effects and what it does, he told me start slow try and experiment with other compounds first and gain experience ...

is absolutely not a beginner or starter dose, just be careful, in the end you do what you feel is best man, im just trying to give you a difference in prospective and view points...

I have slightly edited your quote there and want to clarify that you have read my entire post, and not just jumping to conclusions based solely off the picture I posted?

I have used many compounds spanning 15 years with nearly a cycle a year, and have run tren at 600mg many times. I am fat and untrained now, but was not always so.

I have used test (both enth and prop), eq, dianabol, anavar and tren (both ace and enth). I have run cycles while I have been at low body fat and cycles at high body fat. I have done 12 week cycles, 8 weeks cycles and 20 week cycles.

I think I am past jumping in too early, and the beginner phase.


Also, thanks for posting that article, it is actually an excellent example of why I take these things with a grain of salt.

To summarise, the list of dangers in the article are as follows;

Cholesterol and Blood Pressure

Testosterone Suppression*

Possible Gynecomastia*

Acne Vulgaris*

Male Pattern Baldness*

Visceral Fat

Anxiety and Depression

Tren Cough*

Virilization in Women*

I have put an asterix next to the items on this list that are not specific to tren, or not relevant, or not dangerous. For instance, I don’t really have to worry about virilization, getting some zits isn’t the end of the world, and male patten baldness, although far from ideal is typically seen more often when there is a hereditary predisposition and is not otherwise damaging to health.

Test suppression is something we deal with across all cycles, and while it is true that tren is the most suppressive of all substances, there is nothing in this article that indicates any more suppression at a 600mg dose compared to say 400mg. I would actually argue that at almost any dose tren is totally suppressive of natural testosterone. Once fully supressed there is no difference, regardless of dose.

Tren cough sucks, but it is not damaging to the health as far as I am aware.

Anxiety and depression are absolutely undeniable with tren, and is the sole reason I believe people should not run tren alone. It has unpredictable mental sides 100% I am luckily not in this group.

The big ones, and the most important ones, and as mentioned by the article come down to cholesterol and blood pressure, and in particular left ventricular hypertrophy. The article specifically states ‘The most damaging side effects of trenbolone we see are alterations in cholesterol, causing an increase in cardiovascular strain and left ventricular hypertrophy.

We have seen regular use of trenbolone and other anabolic steroids result in cardiomyopathy (heart disease). Thus, users with a genetic predisposition to cardiovascular implications should avoid trenbolone’.

There is no reported studies in the article to support this. There is also no information about how dose affects this. It also says that this may be more related to genetic predisposition.

On the other hand, in my last post, I linked an article that demonstrated a study comparing test with tren, demonstrating lower lipid levels and no adverse cardiac or hepatic effects observed. It is a single study, but it raises questions.

This does not mean that Dr O’Connor in his article are wrong, there just isnt any evidence within the article that supports what he is saying to any sort of quantifiable degree.

I should also mention that I am aware of the risk of blood pressure and do take steps to manage blood pressure, using beta blockers. I will also add that being overweight is also a contriubtor to high blood pressure, and there is not much that I am aware of that compares the danger and damage done to the heart due to being overweight vs the danger and damage to the heart due to steroid use.

 

[Noah Wixx]

I have slightly edited your quote there and want to clarify that you have read my entire post, and not just jumping to conclusions based solely off the picture I posted?

I have used many compounds spanning 15 years with nearly a cycle a year, and have run tren at 600mg many times. I am fat and untrained now, but was not always so.

I have used test (both enth and prop), eq, dianabol, anavar and tren (both ace and enth). I have run cycles while I have been at low body fat and cycles at high body fat. I have done 12 week cycles, 8 weeks cycles and 20 week cycles.

I think I am past jumping in too early, and the beginner phase.


Also, thanks for posting that article, it is actually an excellent example of why I take these things with a grain of salt.

To summarise, the list of dangers in the article are as follows;

Cholesterol and Blood Pressure

Testosterone Suppression*

Possible Gynecomastia*

Acne Vulgaris*

Male Pattern Baldness*

Visceral Fat

Anxiety and Depression

Tren Cough*

Virilization in Women*

I have put an asterix next to the items on this list that are not specific to tren, or not relevant, or not dangerous. For instance, I don’t really have to worry about virilization, getting some zits isn’t the end of the world, and male patten baldness, although far from ideal is typically seen more often when there is a hereditary predisposition and is not otherwise damaging to health.

Test suppression is something we deal with across all cycles, and while it is true that tren is the most suppressive of all substances, there is nothing in this article that indicates any more suppression at a 600mg dose compared to say 400mg. I would actually argue that at almost any dose tren is totally suppressive of natural testosterone. Once fully supressed there is no difference, regardless of dose.

Tren cough sucks, but it is not damaging to the health as far as I am aware.

Anxiety and depression are absolutely undeniable with tren, and is the sole reason I believe people should not run tren alone. It has unpredictable mental sides 100% I am luckily not in this group.

The big ones, and the most important ones, and as mentioned by the article come down to cholesterol and blood pressure, and in particular left ventricular hypertrophy. The article specifically states ‘The most damaging side effects of trenbolone we see are alterations in cholesterol, causing an increase in cardiovascular strain and left ventricular hypertrophy.

We have seen regular use of trenbolone and other anabolic steroids result in cardiomyopathy (heart disease). Thus, users with a genetic predisposition to cardiovascular implications should avoid trenbolone’.

There is no reported studies in the article to support this. There is also no information about how dose affects this. It also says that this may be more related to genetic predisposition.

On the other hand, in my last post, I linked an article that demonstrated a study comparing test with tren, demonstrating lower lipid levels and no adverse cardiac or hepatic effects observed. It is a single study, but it raises questions.

This does not mean that Dr O’Connor in his article are wrong, there just isnt any evidence within the article that supports what he is saying to any sort of quantifiable degree.

I should also mention that I am aware of the risk of blood pressure and do take steps to manage blood pressure, using beta blockers. I will also add that being overweight is also a contriubtor to high blood pressure, and there is not much that I am aware of that compares the danger and damage done to the heart due to being overweight vs the danger and damage to the heart due to steroid use.

Regardless of experience you aren't in shape now and are out of shape which carries a much higher risk of significance when running something as harsh as tren, i was a really good linebacker in American football but i couldn't just step back onto the field after 5+ years of not playing and dominate at a high level or play at my peak performance capabilities right out the gate it would take timez practice and getting into peak condition, no different then running tren wouldn't you rather get into peak performance utilizing milder compounds first build back your base and while looking your best add the tren ontop as the icing on the cake to take what you built into the next level and blow yourself away and others around you with how insane you look ? My difference in opinion is merely in possibly deploying the tren at a way to early stage of the comeback, along with less risks when at a healthier more peak body shape and state.

 

[shoe]

Regardless of experience you aren't in shape now and are out of shape which carries a much higher risk of significance when running something as harsh as tren, i was a really good linebacker in American football but i couldn't just step back onto the field after 5+ years of not playing and dominate at a high level or play at my peak performance capabilities right out the gate it would take timez practice and getting into peak condition, no different then running tren wouldn't you rather get into peak performance utilizing milder compounds first build back your base and while looking your best add the tren ontop as the icing on the cake to take what you built into the next level and blow yourself away and others around you with how insane you look ? My difference in opinion is merely in possibly deploying the tren at a way to early stage of the comeback, along with less risks when at a healthier more peak body shape and state.

Look I agree, I think now is as close to as bad as I have ever been. I am a little disgusted with myself actually. I have been here and done this before though on many occasions. I used to get blood panels 3 months after evey cycle too and they always came back good, although admittedly I havent done in at least 3-4 years now.

I have been pretty bad at yoyo-ing ever since I started gymming. My mates call me the bear because I come out and train and get fit for 6 months and then go and hibernate for the other 6 months, and come back out fat...

Here is a bit of a montage of what we are working with over time... I actually hate photos and stop taking them after I start to put on progress for some reason. And its annoying but lost the hard drive years ago when was at peak around 26 year old.

I also included my teen years, because there is actually a high metabolism skinny kid in here trying to get out somewhere.


5-6 ish years ago, over 8 ish weeks

7-8 ish years ago (natty I think)

9 ish years

Teenage years before ever setting foot in gym, the skinny boy hiding inside

 

[Noah Wixx]

Look I agree, I think now is as close to as bad as I have ever been. I am a little disgusted with myself actually. I have been here and done this before though on many occasions. I used to get blood panels 3 months after evey cycle too and they always came back good, although admittedly I havent done in at least 3-4 years now.

I have been pretty bad at yoyo-ing ever since I started gymming. My mates call me the bear because I come out and train and get fit for 6 months and then go and hibernate for the other 6 months, and come back out fat...

Here is a bit of a montage of what we are working with over time... I actually hate photos and stop taking them after I start to put on progress for some reason. And its annoying but lost the hard drive years ago when was at peak around 26 year old.

I also included my teen years, because there is actually a high metabolism skinny kid in here trying to get out somewhere.


5-6 ish years ago, over 8 ish weeks

View attachment 119980

7-8 ish years ago (natty I think)

View attachment 119981

9 ish years


View attachment 119982


View attachment 119983

Teenage years before ever setting foot in gym, the skinny boy hiding inside

View attachment 119985

I appreciate the montage and you sharing the progress and insights into your mind and jounery, at the end of the day you got my support brother regardless of which path you chose to walk, as long as you are well versed and educated which you seem to have that covered then do what you feel is absolutely the best steps forward for you and the progress you're after.

My story is similar with yours in the fact i spent my 20s before any steroid usage getting ripped and lean and working my ass off, covid hit and i got fat and for the last 3 years ive been making a comeback qnd being coached as im aiming to compete in the men's physique division on stage and take it as far as i possibly can.

I just want to see you thrive and succeed brother

 

[shoe]

No worries my brother, looking out for each other is important.

I appreciate you

 

[Noah Wixx]

No worries my brother, looking out for each other is important.

I appreciate you

Absolutely that is the core of what evo is all about

 

[Noah Wixx]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

What a huge TD

 

[Tiger Salman Khan]

Look I agree, I think now is as close to as bad as I have ever been. I am a little disgusted with myself actually. I have been here and done this before though on many occasions. I used to get blood panels 3 months after evey cycle too and they always came back good, although admittedly I havent done in at least 3-4 years now.

I have been pretty bad at yoyo-ing ever since I started gymming. My mates call me the bear because I come out and train and get fit for 6 months and then go and hibernate for the other 6 months, and come back out fat...

Here is a bit of a montage of what we are working with over time... I actually hate photos and stop taking them after I start to put on progress for some reason. And its annoying but lost the hard drive years ago when was at peak around 26 year old.

I also included my teen years, because there is actually a high metabolism skinny kid in here trying to get out somewhere.


5-6 ish years ago, over 8 ish weeks

View attachment 119980

7-8 ish years ago (natty I think)

View attachment 119981

9 ish years


View attachment 119982


View attachment 119983

Teenage years before ever setting foot in gym, the skinny boy hiding inside

View attachment 119985

@shoe looking solid bro....keep going........

 

[25homes]

This may not be your usual log. I havent posted a log before, or even had much of an interest in reading them.. That is until I learnt about this Retatrutide and wanted to find some info and results on people running with tren.

I have an order en route as we speak, hopefully will arrive early in the week. Cycle is as following (per week) for 14-16weeks;
* 600mg tren e
* 500mg test e
* 2mg reta

I will be pinning twice per week, I like Mon and Fri, but since gear will arrive mid week I will work it out when it comes. I like to stick to consistent days rather than every 3 or 4 days so I dont forget and mix up the days.

History

40 years old. I have run a cycle almost every year for more than a decade.

There was a period back at the beginning when it was all about the size and the numbers and seeing the scales go up. Back in my mid twenties at a comfortable 80ish kgs we would train and aim for 100 lean. And made it too. Lifts were never that heavy, I fucked up my arm in my 20s and my left elbow is full of screws and plates. Despite this looked pretty good, had good size and not going to lie, it felt pretty good watching the crowd part as we walked through.

No longer have the urge to be creating waves in crowds or getting looks. I just like to look fit and feel strong.

People here are going to hate it, but I have run entire cycles barely training. Tren and test together is so powerful that you can go from fat to looking like you bench 100kg without stepping through the door.

I get minor sides from tren, mainly trensomnia and cooking in bed at night feeling like a million degrees. Last few cycles has been relatively side free. I typically run 600mg tren and 500-600mg test each time.

My results in the past with very little training have been impressive. Approaching about 8 weeks, people start to say looking thin, and they will comment every time they see me at week 12. I do add intermittent fasting and will typically fast every day until around 4pm.

And again, people are going to hate me for not being committed etc but I do not change my diet at all during these cycles. I am talking far too much alcohol daily, plenty of carbs and delicious foods, not counting or caring for macros at all. Huge portion sizes, the literal works.

I ended my last cycle around Jan this year. Between then and now, despite looking pretty good (in comparison) ending up around 86kg (down from 104) I have put it all back on and look like a general middle aged guy again.

It is about now though when I am back to about 100kg (havent weighed in for starting weight yet) that I look in the mirror and just feel yuck and so it all starts again.

So lets consider this a log for the average middle aged chump.

The plan this time

Having said all that things are going to be a little different this time. I have some more defined goals and they are aggressive. I am aiming for sub 80kg. 75kg would be perfect. This is an approximate 25% reduction in bodyweight in a 16 week time frame.

Tren is powerful but even that is beyond its scope. Enter Retatrutide. I had never heard of this before but it looks like it will help bridge this gap.

I am also going to be training from week one this cycle. I still am not looking lift big numbers. I will go in with the goal of focusing on core large exercises, deads, squats, pull ups, push ups, rows, bench, fly, curls, pushdowns. I havent decided whether to run a 3, 4 or 5 day split. I used to a 5 day body part split, but I dont know that I have time to fit this in. I will probably focus on reps and sets over weight.

I will be daily intermittent fasting and I will incorporate at least 2, 60 hour fasts.

I will also be adding melanotan in to the whole mix, pinned at the same time as the reta. I usually do about 1ug per week.

On cycle support

I have a propensity towards gyno, not sure if it is because I am fat, or if in the past I didnt stay on top of my AI as I should and developed a baseline gyno that just gets aggravated with new cycles. I typically run adex at around 1mg twice a week (2mg total). Seems like a lot, probably is, but the gyno is sticky. I also add some caber in for the tren in case it was a prolactin issue. Never seems to help.

This time I will be using aromasin instead I hope that being a suicidal inhibitor it will be more effective, I will stick with usual .25mg twice per week and see how we go. I have caber as well, since I seem to tolerate it I will add it in prophylactically.

PCT will be nolva and clomid

One final note

For those that are reading this and looking at the glorification of tren, understand this. I have used tren at least 7 or 8 cycles and know I tolerate it well.

When I first started cycling 15 ish years back, when I actually was considered a gym junky there was zero tren in any initial cycles. I started test only cycles at 500mg a week. After that added in EQ. It was only after 3-4 years worth of cycling that I added my first tren in. It was Tren A and it was pinned eod at a low dose.

And let me tell you, my training partner then could NOT handle it at all. He had all sorts of issues and did not make it to week 5 even at low dose.

I have seen idiots on tren at the gym lose their minds and throw weights, yell and just be general dickheads because they are running tren at doses they cannot tolerate. I have seen gym buddies break up with their wives and start fights with their mates and just go into dark mental holes.

Despite me running a high tren dose, I am in a blessedly lucky group that experiences very little sides apart from some sleeplessness and running hot at night and heartburn. I experience no mental sides at all, and I think this might be partially related to me having aphantasia.

I do not recommend anyone run tren without having someone with you , and who knows you because it is difficult to self-monitor behavioural changes when you are under the influence of a drug like tren.

Def need to get diet in check

 

[25homes]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

Great to see bro

 

[ballin2504]

@UGL OZ are you guys magicians?

Order placed Friday and in my hands the following Monday? Incredible.

View attachment 119348

@shoe can’t be a good touchdown picture congratulations

 

[shoe]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

 

[LevButlerov]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

welcome back to the EVO family! @shoe
Good 1-month update and you’re definitely leaner in the new pic. With these long 4-week gaps it’s harder for us to track trends or make quick adjustments, so try posting weekly so we can guide you tighter on dosing and food.

Tren and reta are starting to clash on appetite so increasing reta to 3 mg per week is fair, just watch nausea. You should consider dropping the tren tbh.
Keep aromasin at 12.5 mg 2x weekly and if gyno pressure stays, add 10 mg nolva daily until tenderness drops.

To really help you going forward, minimum lets try weekly updates, can you do that?

 

[stevesmi]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

@shoe reta will slow gastric emptying. so you won't be able to over eat on it. so it helps keep your meals smaller

 

[ceo]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

bros that is a crazy stack. Tren at that dose with your conditioning very risky. No wonder you feel nauseous.

 

[ROIDDERS]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

i would not have told you to use tren here @shoe I would have just went with the fat burning protocol. But in the end, I think you figured that out.

 

[Mobster]

Gyno will continue to be an issue until the fat comes down. That said you are progressing

 

[Ulter]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

i would not use steroids again until your body fat gets under 15%. unless you are solely focused on powerlifting. you need to get leaner @shoe

 

[2Thick]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

@shoe headaches and sickness are not good signs. If you're having to take electrolytes that should be a red flag that something is off in your body from the gear. tren will do that

 

[ballin2504]

1 month update

Hi all, so a month has gone by and I thought I would provide my first results.

As a recap;
600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Weight difference
Starting 104.5
Lowest point 100.7
Today 101.5
Difference today -3kg

The first weeks on reta (and before the juice was in play) was quite something, although the reta failed to supress desire to break fast and eat, it significantly affected the amount I could eat, with small amounts of food making me feel pretty immediately full.

I felt intermittent pangs of nausea, and consistent dull headaches which I have largely eliminated now by increasing water with electrolytes.

Although only 1 month in, and with juice only really beginning to take effect after weeks 2-3 I am not going to lie am feeling a little dissappointed that did not break below 100 in this first month. Having had some carb heavy foods in the last two days seeing the scales higher today than 2 days ago is also not the best feeling in the world, although I know it is just water.

The juice kicking in will have brought in immediate additional water weight and so I am rationalising to myself that there may have been a greater than 3kg net fat loss this month. Month 2 will be telling.

Body shape wise, not much change. A little more tanned now on the melanotan, but otherwise much the same. Again hoped for more pronounced change.

Gyno continues to be a plague for me, as it has every cycle, was on 12.5mg aromasin 2x a week, now increasing to 3x. Will add in some nolva as well if it continues. Currently feel tender on nips particularly right hand side, and can feel small lump forming with slight tenderness.

As the juice kicks in I can feel the appetite increasing properties of tren fighting with the reta. I think the reta dose of 2mg per week is not sufficient, so will increase to 3mg per week and reassess.

No issues with sleep. Body feels cooler than usual, I have the AC turned up higher and feel uncomfortably cold at times where cold is rarely an issue for me.

Here is looking forward to month 2 and more pronounced results.

View attachment 128596

@shoe looks like you’ve lost some good weight brother. Keep it up.

 

[toddthelineman]

I want to start with this comment, as long as there has been internet forums there have been people claiming that steroids are not fat burners in and of themselves. This is a bit of a misconception because while there are undoubtably more effective drugs out there that will burn fat at a far greater rate, steroids are effective fat burners as well.

One of the often cited studies that floats around is this paper from 1996 that demosntrated that when comparing supraphysiological doses of testosterone that the study ground with 600mg of test per week added more fat-free mass without exercising than the placebo group did with exercising.

We know that by simply adding muscle mass that the resting metabolic rate increases, so if diet remains consistent then simply adding muscle mass is the equivalent of a drop in calories equal to the change of the resting metabolic rate. This study is not perfect, because fat free mass is not necessarily muscle, although it is fair to assume that a proportion of this mass was muscle.

We can also see from this study with anavar they gave to 60-87 year old men that simply taking 20mg per day led to reduced visceral fat, adominal fat and thigh fat while also increasing insulin sensitivity.

This 2016 study also showed that for obese men while on a low calorie diet a test group given a 10 week cycle of test undeconate faired much better with the study concluding "While dieting men receiving placebo lost both fat and lean mass, the weight loss with testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to loss of body fat."

And this comes to the crux of why I use steroids when wanting to lose weight. When you diet to lose fat, through whatever your preferred method is, a proportion of the weight you lose is muscle mass. This means that over time, as you lose weight you are reducing your metabolic efficiency. Steroids prevent the loss of muscle mass, and even while not training will put on an amount of muscle while a calorie deficit targets fat only, increasing your metabolic efficiency as you progress.

The general consensus in bodybuilding groups though, is that you must lose the fat first before then fixing the lost muscle problem once you are at x% body fat and at a particular level of training. I have never believed there is much evidence for this and it comes down to a little bit of broscience.

There are so few people out there that would run a cycle with very minimal (or no training) that there really is very little in the way of actual evidence in the community about exactly what happens when someone who is not in shape at the start, does a big cycle and doesnt train at all.

When was the last time you saw a log of a steroid cycle without any training? They dont exist.

If I didnt have a clear weight target this time around I would log the whole thing just to demonstrate the effect.

I can however provide some results from my previous cycle that might raise some eyebrows.

Below is my weight tracking for when I started my last cycle. You can see the initial uptick as water weight comes on, and then you can see, across a period of about 6 weeks, a drop of nearly 8kg from the peak without one single day of training.

View attachment 119246

In fact I can show you as well, I did not even join a gym until a month after the last point on that chart.

View attachment 119247

After this I dropped further

View attachment 119248


This was done simply through a combination of steroids and intermittent fasting 20 off 4 on and a longer 60 hour fast.

Apart from the fasting my diet remained unchanged, my rule was zero calories during the fasting hours and whatever I like in the eating hours.

And here is where I caveat this whole post again, because while there is absolutely no doubt that steroids by themselves are very effective fat destroyers, there are far safer ways to lose fat that dont mess with your endocrine system. The gyno I mentioned in my first post is just one of the many issues that can pop up.

I am confident saying that most people that pick up a vial have no idea of what those hormones are about to do to the normal processes in the body, the checks and balances that are in place that are about to be thrown into chaos. Even those who do the right amount of research prior to beginning a cycle and who go into it with the correct AIs and serms and sarms and hcg and do everything perfect from start to end do so without understanding the mechanics behind why. I am not pretending to fully understand these myself and there are people on these boards who are far more knowledgeable.

I would not, and do not, recommend steroids for fat loss alone.

And finally, here is the other side of the coin, what happens when you get off cycle, and still dont change diet, but stop fasting?

The truly smart among us would maintain their new weight, or at least continue fasting.

Yours truly is not that smart.

View attachment 119255

This is so detailed. This is really good reading. I’ll love following this log and seeing you turn all this into results!

 

[toddthelineman]

600mg tren e
500mg test
2mg reta

Wow. Aggressive

Body feels cooler than usual,

After scanning, I didn’t quickly find much about your diet, but I think I gather that your plan is a steep deficit and aggressive anabolic stack to hold your muscle?

I believe it will work if you can white knuckle your way through it. Of course it will. Might be easier on your body and ultimately more effective to do it slowly , but what do I know? I’ve never dieted in my life

 

[shoe]

Morning all, thanks for all your replies positive and doubting, as mentioned earlier up in initial posts, my personal opinions on juicing while overweight differs from generally accepted community ideas, and I think there is evidence to back that up, but we dont need to rehash those again now.

I wanted to post up some body comp percentages, which I think will be interesting to include as time goes on. These are measured from a Samsung watch and I have no doubts that they will have large margins of error, but I think they will track trends relative to their own readings relatively well.

After month 1 I was was feeling underwhelmed at the total weight lost numbers, and have to keep reminding myself that although I have a final weight target, the actual goal is fat loss and muscle growth. I only got the watch a couple of weeks ago so the data isnt from the start of the cycle, but the trends are interesting.

Total weight has barely moved in this time sitting within around a 2kg range. At the same time skeletal muscle mass has shown a marked increase of up to around 2.5kg while fat has shown a much larger decrease of up to 5kg in this period.

Although these exact numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt, the trend over time is clear that fat is decreasing at a quick step even if (in my opinion) this isnt reflected very much in the 1 month photo.

There was a question of current diet. I am intermittent fasting daily with an eating window from 4pm until approx 9pm daily. Cals are relatively low and although I am not measuring them my eyeball guess is easily under 2k per day, and more likely around 1500 per day.

 

[LevButlerov]

Morning all, thanks for all your replies positive and doubting, as mentioned earlier up in initial posts, my personal opinions on juicing while overweight differs from generally accepted community ideas, and I think there is evidence to back that up, but we dont need to rehash those again now.

I wanted to post up some body comp percentages, which I think will be interesting to include as time goes on. These are measured from a Samsung watch and I have no doubts that they will have large margins of error, but I think they will track trends relative to their own readings relatively well.

After month 1 I was was feeling underwhelmed at the total weight lost numbers, and have to keep reminding myself that although I have a final weight target, the actual goal is fat loss and muscle growth. I only got the watch a couple of weeks ago so the data isnt from the start of the cycle, but the trends are interesting.

Total weight has barely moved in this time sitting within around a 2kg range. At the same time skeletal muscle mass has shown a marked increase of up to around 2.5kg while fat has shown a much larger decrease of up to 5kg in this period.

Although these exact numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt, the trend over time is clear that fat is decreasing at a quick step even if (in my opinion) this isnt reflected very much in the 1 month photo.

There was a question of current diet. I am intermittent fasting daily with an eating window from 4pm until approx 9pm daily. Cals are relatively low and although I am not measuring them my eyeball guess is easily under 2k per day, and more likely around 1500 per day.

View attachment 130150

View attachment 130151








View attachment 130152

Good tracking update. The readings might not be precise, but the 2.5 kg muscle gain with a 5 kg fat drop means your recomp is working even with body weight staying level.

Your 4–9 pm fasting setup at roughly 1500–2000 kcal is keeping fat loss steady, but keep an eye on strength trends and recovery. If lifts start dipping, bump calories by 200–300 from clean sources like eggs, steak, or rice to hold lean mass while the fat keeps coming off. @shoe

 

[shoe]

Dropped under 100kg this morning which is nice.

In the meantime though, after sleeping poorly one night managed to wake up with a fucked (suspected) rhomboid which has been giving me grief now for about 3 days.

Pain on left hand side between neck and shoulder just above and adjacent to the scapula with pain radiating into neck. Pain when turning head both left and right but primarily looking right.

Have been working on stretches which give temp relief plus rotating pillows and trying to sleep on back rather than side. This has happened before, usually on the same side too. Feels better today than yesterday.

 

[LevButlerov]

Dropped under 100kg this morning which is nice.

In the meantime though, after sleeping poorly one night managed to wake up with a fucked (suspected) rhomboid which has been giving me grief now for about 3 days.

Pain on left hand side between neck and shoulder just above and adjacent to the scapula with pain radiating into neck. Pain when turning head both left and right but primarily looking right.

Have been working on stretches which give temp relief plus rotating pillows and trying to sleep on back rather than side. This has happened before, usually on the same side too. Feels better today than yesterday.

Strong day logged even with the setback. Dropping under 100 kg is good weight, you making progress!
the rhomboid strain sounds like a tension flare from the poor sleep position, probably inflammation.

Keep stretching and a massage gun around the scapula edge to release it gently and an infrared lamp too. That might help, @shoe

 

[shoe]

Thanks for the advice, it is much improved I was back in the gym earlier today, and seems to be at its worst just after waking.

I got my next order in from the guys at UGLOZ with nolva, which I have started today to help combat this ongoing gyno issue. I started with 40mg, which I am planning to persist for 4-5 days and drop down to 20mg a day and hope that it clears things up.

In general, except for the rhomboid issue, I have been feeling excellent in the last week, mood is spectacular, the increased dose of 3mg reta along with my bodies acceptance of the daily fasting has meant that there is little in the way of hunger. Sleep is perfect and the added chill that the reta seems to add to my day balances the tren nicely and I have experienced no night sweats or trensomnia.

Weight has continued to drop weighing in at 98.7kg this morning which is -5.8kg from peak. It is still less than I would have wanted on the scales approximately 6 weeks in, but it now appears to be accelerating.

 

[LevButlerov]

Thanks for the advice, it is much improved I was back in the gym earlier today, and seems to be at its worst just after waking.

I got my next order in from the guys at UGLOZ with nolva, which I have started today to help combat this ongoing gyno issue. I started with 40mg, which I am planning to persist for 4-5 days and drop down to 20mg a day and hope that it clears things up.

In general, except for the rhomboid issue, I have been feeling excellent in the last week, mood is spectacular, the increased dose of 3mg reta along with my bodies acceptance of the daily fasting has meant that there is little in the way of hunger. Sleep is perfect and the added chill that the reta seems to add to my day balances the tren nicely and I have experienced no night sweats or trensomnia.

Weight has continued to drop weighing in at 98.7kg this morning which is -5.8kg from peak. It is still less than I would have wanted on the scales approximately 6 weeks in, but it now appears to be accelerating.

Good to hear the rhomboid is easing up and you’re back in the gym, sounds like it’s just morning stiffness now. Keep that gentle mobility work going and maybe stretch right after waking before training.

Smart call starting nolva at 40 mg to hit the gyno fast, then taper to 20 mg but remember you can crash e2 so be careful doing it @shoe

 

[Mobster]

On the 'evidence to back that up' - post it.

 

[shoe]

On the 'evidence to back that up' - post it.

Sure, if you read back to the first pages of this thread you will see I extensively wrote about the effects of general AAS use and their effects on fat loss, and cited a number of articles relating specifically to the effects of steroid use on fat loss, comparing both trained and untrained groups and obese groups.

I also talked about metabolic efficiencies that occur simultaneously as fat is lost and muscle is increased which is only achievable in any real way with steroid use.

Further down in following posts I also cited a study specifically looking at tren use and it's efffects on adiposity, lipid profiles as well as cardiac and hepatic effects and refuted an article written by a doctor and which is often cited and which demonises tren and which does not cite any sources within the article specific to tren, when compared to other steroids and is at odds with other published literature relating specifically to tren.

I understand that I include a lot of information in some of my posts, which can be easy to skim over, but believe I come from at least a relatively informed position.

I have also made it clear that I do not believe that tren is safe and not without risk, and I do have concerns about neurological effects, but I otherwise stand by what I have posted.

 

[stevesmi]

Morning all, thanks for all your replies positive and doubting, as mentioned earlier up in initial posts, my personal opinions on juicing while overweight differs from generally accepted community ideas, and I think there is evidence to back that up, but we dont need to rehash those again now.

I wanted to post up some body comp percentages, which I think will be interesting to include as time goes on. These are measured from a Samsung watch and I have no doubts that they will have large margins of error, but I think they will track trends relative to their own readings relatively well.

After month 1 I was was feeling underwhelmed at the total weight lost numbers, and have to keep reminding myself that although I have a final weight target, the actual goal is fat loss and muscle growth. I only got the watch a couple of weeks ago so the data isnt from the start of the cycle, but the trends are interesting.

Total weight has barely moved in this time sitting within around a 2kg range. At the same time skeletal muscle mass has shown a marked increase of up to around 2.5kg while fat has shown a much larger decrease of up to 5kg in this period.

Although these exact numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt, the trend over time is clear that fat is decreasing at a quick step even if (in my opinion) this isnt reflected very much in the 1 month photo.

There was a question of current diet. I am intermittent fasting daily with an eating window from 4pm until approx 9pm daily. Cals are relatively low and although I am not measuring them my eyeball guess is easily under 2k per day, and more likely around 1500 per day.

View attachment 130150

View attachment 130151








View attachment 130152

@shoe you are on the right track. i would also encourage you to do IF in a 2-4 hour window. that is most optimal

 

[2Thick]

Morning all, thanks for all your replies positive and doubting, as mentioned earlier up in initial posts, my personal opinions on juicing while overweight differs from generally accepted community ideas, and I think there is evidence to back that up, but we dont need to rehash those again now.

I wanted to post up some body comp percentages, which I think will be interesting to include as time goes on. These are measured from a Samsung watch and I have no doubts that they will have large margins of error, but I think they will track trends relative to their own readings relatively well.

After month 1 I was was feeling underwhelmed at the total weight lost numbers, and have to keep reminding myself that although I have a final weight target, the actual goal is fat loss and muscle growth. I only got the watch a couple of weeks ago so the data isnt from the start of the cycle, but the trends are interesting.

Total weight has barely moved in this time sitting within around a 2kg range. At the same time skeletal muscle mass has shown a marked increase of up to around 2.5kg while fat has shown a much larger decrease of up to 5kg in this period.

Although these exact numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt, the trend over time is clear that fat is decreasing at a quick step even if (in my opinion) this isnt reflected very much in the 1 month photo.

There was a question of current diet. I am intermittent fasting daily with an eating window from 4pm until approx 9pm daily. Cals are relatively low and although I am not measuring them my eyeball guess is easily under 2k per day, and more likely around 1500 per day.

View attachment 130150

View attachment 130151








View attachment 130152

Think you can absolutely use steroids even at a higher body fat. A lot of powerlifters do that who are in heavyweight. But I think the main concern is what kind of effect it has on your lipid health. @shoe

 

[ceo]

Sure, if you read back to the first pages of this thread you will see I extensively wrote about the effects of general AAS use and their effects on fat loss, and cited a number of articles relating specifically to the effects of steroid use on fat loss, comparing both trained and untrained groups and obese groups.

I also talked about metabolic efficiencies that occur simultaneously as fat is lost and muscle is increased which is only achievable in any real way with steroid use.

Further down in following posts I also cited a study specifically looking at tren use and it's efffects on adiposity, lipid profiles as well as cardiac and hepatic effects and refuted an article written by a doctor and which is often cited and which demonises tren and which does not cite any sources within the article specific to tren, when compared to other steroids and is at odds with other published literature relating specifically to tren.

I understand that I include a lot of information in some of my posts, which can be easy to skim over, but believe I come from at least a relatively informed position.

I have also made it clear that I do not believe that tren is safe and not without risk, and I do have concerns about neurological effects, but I otherwise stand by what I have posted.

bros you not wrong. Anabolic steroids help with body metabolism @shoe BUT if you lose as much body fat as you can then use them you can most take advantage of them

 

[ROIDDERS]

Sure, if you read back to the first pages of this thread you will see I extensively wrote about the effects of general AAS use and their effects on fat loss, and cited a number of articles relating specifically to the effects of steroid use on fat loss, comparing both trained and untrained groups and obese groups.

I also talked about metabolic efficiencies that occur simultaneously as fat is lost and muscle is increased which is only achievable in any real way with steroid use.

Further down in following posts I also cited a study specifically looking at tren use and it's efffects on adiposity, lipid profiles as well as cardiac and hepatic effects and refuted an article written by a doctor and which is often cited and which demonises tren and which does not cite any sources within the article specific to tren, when compared to other steroids and is at odds with other published literature relating specifically to tren.

I understand that I include a lot of information in some of my posts, which can be easy to skim over, but believe I come from at least a relatively informed position.

I have also made it clear that I do not believe that tren is safe and not without risk, and I do have concerns about neurological effects, but I otherwise stand by what I have posted.

@shoe my mentality is why build muscle when it's covered up by fat? I think you should at least be able to see that outer layer of your abs. That makes the most sense.

 

[Ulter]

Sure, if you read back to the first pages of this thread you will see I extensively wrote about the effects of general AAS use and their effects on fat loss, and cited a number of articles relating specifically to the effects of steroid use on fat loss, comparing both trained and untrained groups and obese groups.

I also talked about metabolic efficiencies that occur simultaneously as fat is lost and muscle is increased which is only achievable in any real way with steroid use.

Further down in following posts I also cited a study specifically looking at tren use and it's efffects on adiposity, lipid profiles as well as cardiac and hepatic effects and refuted an article written by a doctor and which is often cited and which demonises tren and which does not cite any sources within the article specific to tren, when compared to other steroids and is at odds with other published literature relating specifically to tren.

I understand that I include a lot of information in some of my posts, which can be easy to skim over, but believe I come from at least a relatively informed position.

I have also made it clear that I do not believe that tren is safe and not without risk, and I do have concerns about neurological effects, but I otherwise stand by what I have posted.

Yeah, with Trenbolone it definitely can affect the brain. We know that it can cause inflammation in the brain and if you're overweight that issue would be much worse. @shoe

 

[shoe]

The days of tren in general for me are drawing to a close anyway I think.

The yoyo-ing up and down yearly is not only a lot of work, but has to be hard on the body. After breaking that 40 year old barrier this year I am more and more inclined to just aggressively push down to an acceptable physique and then jump on a trt dose and maintain IF.

The problem is food and alcohol is just so damn delicious. Reta really kicks that in the butt though. I thought I would splurge last night and made some loaded home made pizzas, put four pieces on the plate and couldnt even finish the third piece.

Obligatory pizza pic

 

[LevButlerov]

The days of tren in general for me are drawing to a close anyway I think.

The yoyo-ing up and down yearly is not only a lot of work, but has to be hard on the body. After breaking that 40 year old barrier this year I am more and more inclined to just aggressively push down to an acceptable physique and then jump on a trt dose and maintain IF.

The problem is food and alcohol is just so damn delicious. Reta really kicks that in the butt though. I thought I would splurge last night and made some loaded home made pizzas, put four pieces on the plate and couldnt even finish the third piece.

Obligatory pizza pic


View attachment 132977

WOW those pizzas look sooo good @shoe you ate all 3???

 

[shoe]

haha just 2 and a bit slices... my wonderful wife though had a great carb filled night

 

[LevButlerov]

haha just 2 and a bit slices... my wonderful wife though had a great carb filled night

You should take berberine and ALA those days

 

[ballin2504]

Morning all, thanks for all your replies positive and doubting, as mentioned earlier up in initial posts, my personal opinions on juicing while overweight differs from generally accepted community ideas, and I think there is evidence to back that up, but we dont need to rehash those again now.

I wanted to post up some body comp percentages, which I think will be interesting to include as time goes on. These are measured from a Samsung watch and I have no doubts that they will have large margins of error, but I think they will track trends relative to their own readings relatively well.

After month 1 I was was feeling underwhelmed at the total weight lost numbers, and have to keep reminding myself that although I have a final weight target, the actual goal is fat loss and muscle growth. I only got the watch a couple of weeks ago so the data isnt from the start of the cycle, but the trends are interesting.

Total weight has barely moved in this time sitting within around a 2kg range. At the same time skeletal muscle mass has shown a marked increase of up to around 2.5kg while fat has shown a much larger decrease of up to 5kg in this period.

Although these exact numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt, the trend over time is clear that fat is decreasing at a quick step even if (in my opinion) this isnt reflected very much in the 1 month photo.

There was a question of current diet. I am intermittent fasting daily with an eating window from 4pm until approx 9pm daily. Cals are relatively low and although I am not measuring them my eyeball guess is easily under 2k per day, and more likely around 1500 per day.

View attachment 130150

View attachment 130151








View attachment 130152

@shoe love to see how you’re tracking this. I agree I’m sure they are not 100% but it is giving you feedback and you’re heading in the right direction

 

[shoe]

Coming into week 6 and beginning my first extended fast, aiming for 60 hours but may extend to 72 depending on how I feel.

In the past with extended fasts I have always gone in with a average sized meal prior, this may prove harder than those times as I estimate my daily calories to be 1500 ish, just based on portion size and ingredients.

I have continued to be disappointed with the overall numbers on the scales dropping, weighing in this morning at 98.1kg which is a total 6.1kg lost in just over 6 weeks. The total fat lost is higher, however I will not meet my target weight of around 75kg by week 16 at this rate. I will post updated body comp charts and photos as complete week 8.

I thought these two comments are both good points and worth addressing.

bros you not wrong. Anabolic steroids help with body metabolism @shoe BUT if you lose as much body fat as you can then use them you can most take advantage of them

@shoe my mentality is why build muscle when it's covered up by fat? I think you should at least be able to see that outer layer of your abs. That makes the most sense.

There is a really good article released in the Journal of Clinical Medicine in 2024 which looks at the relationship between body composition and metabolic rate where the author was looking at how fat and muscle work to impact resting metabolic rate.

The results are extremely interesting stating "The main finding of this study was the strong positive correlation between muscle mass and RMR, with no impact observed for total FM (fat mass) or liver fat on RMR" which in a nutshell means that lean muscle mass is essentially the only thing that matters when improving resting metabolic rate.

They also noted 'Furthermore, in the aforementioned study, researchers found that for each kilogram gain in FFM, RMR was augmented by 28 kcal/day... Our own research yielded similar results, showing an increase of 24 kcal/day.'

This is particularly important because each kg of muscle gained adds up to around 28 cals to the daily metabolic rate with the inverse also being true.

The authors state about calorie restricted diets; 'An additional factor that influences RMR is the implementation of energy restriction, as observed in weight loss interventions through reduced energy intake. This practice, named metabolic adaptation, leads to a decrease in RMR as a biological response to energy restriction and may elucidate the difficulty in properly calculating patient’s energy needs, as well as maintaining weight loss associated with low-calorie diets '

And so, when dieting over time, as calories are restricted and weight is lost, the overall efficiency of the diet decreases as time goes on. Metabolic adaption kicks in, metabolism is slowed, BMR reduces and muscle loss increases. Usually the answer to try and prevent this as much as possible is to use protein rich diets etc to help mitgate these effects or by using other drugs like tirz/reta etc.

These methods though are highly inefficient when compared to using steroids simultaneous with dieting. As mentioned in earlier posts studies show that muscle loss can be totally prevented on low and very low calorie diets, and even gained in some people.

A study I linked previously from 2016 looked specifically at the effect of testosterone in obese men on low calorie diets stating 'among obese men with low to low-normal testosterone submitted to a weight loss program, testosterone treatment decreased total fat mass and visceral adipose tissue, and protected against loss of total and appendicular lean mass.' and concluded 'Among obese men with a low to low-normal testosterone typical for the majority of obese men, testosterone treatment augmented diet-induced loss of total fat and visceral fat mass, and preserved lean mass so that, in contrast to placebo-treated men who lost both lean and fat mass, diet-induced weight loss during testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to the loss of body fat.'

And this does not take into account any of the additional motivatory factors that AAS can add while dieting and gymming.

It is also important to note that while there are many negative impacts on testosterone caused by obesity, there is very little evidence of the reverse.

That is, there is no substantial evidence to suggest any additional negative impacts occur from AAS use if you are obese, compared to fit.

In fact studies such as this one from 1993 looking at testosterone treatment in obese men concluded; 'In summary, substitution of abdominally obese men with T results in improvements of their risk factor profile for cardiovascular disease and non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus, as well as in a diminution of visceral fat mass. The effects seem to be specific for T, and treatment is apparently not followed by unwanted reactions.

We know that steroid use comes with a range of negative consequences, but why is there a persistant myth within steroid communities that these consequences are somehow worse for regular overweight Joe.

And so, the evidence seems pretty clear to me that you can either choose to diet with diminishing returns and then work to claw back muscle and metabolic losses after the fact by juicing up and hitting the gym ... or you can start running straight out the gate with AAS and have improved mood and willpower, preserve and even build muscle in a deficit, reduce visceral fat, and improve other health markers, all while increasing metabolic efficiency the longer you persist and the more muscle you build.

 

[ROIDDERS]

Coming into week 6 and beginning my first extended fast, aiming for 60 hours but may extend to 72 depending on how I feel.

In the past with extended fasts I have always gone in with a average sized meal prior, this may prove harder than those times as I estimate my daily calories to be 1500 ish, just based on portion size and ingredients.

I have continued to be disappointed with the overall numbers on the scales dropping, weighing in this morning at 98.1kg which is a total 6.1kg lost in just over 6 weeks. The total fat lost is higher, however I will not meet my target weight of around 75kg by week 16 at this rate. I will post updated body comp charts and photos as complete week 8.

I thought these two comments are both good points and worth addressing.




There is a really good article released in the Journal of Clinical Medicine in 2024 which looks at the relationship between body composition and metabolic rate where the author was looking at how fat and muscle work to impact resting metabolic rate.

The results are extremely interesting stating "The main finding of this study was the strong positive correlation between muscle mass and RMR, with no impact observed for total FM (fat mass) or liver fat on RMR" which in a nutshell means that lean muscle mass is essentially the only thing that matters when improving resting metabolic rate.

They also noted 'Furthermore, in the aforementioned study, researchers found that for each kilogram gain in FFM, RMR was augmented by 28 kcal/day... Our own research yielded similar results, showing an increase of 24 kcal/day.'

This is particularly important because each kg of muscle gained adds up to around 28 cals to the daily metabolic rate with the inverse also being true.

The authors state about calorie restricted diets; 'An additional factor that influences RMR is the implementation of energy restriction, as observed in weight loss interventions through reduced energy intake. This practice, named metabolic adaptation, leads to a decrease in RMR as a biological response to energy restriction and may elucidate the difficulty in properly calculating patient’s energy needs, as well as maintaining weight loss associated with low-calorie diets '

And so, when dieting over time, as calories are restricted and weight is lost, the overall efficiency of the diet decreases as time goes on. Metabolic adaption kicks in, metabolism is slowed, BMR reduces and muscle loss increases. Usually the answer to try and prevent this as much as possible is to use protein rich diets etc to help mitgate these effects or by using other drugs like tirz/reta etc.

These methods though are highly inefficient when compared to using steroids simultaneous with dieting. As mentioned in earlier posts studies show that muscle loss can be totally prevented on low and very low calorie diets, and even gained in some people.

A study I linked previously from 2016 looked specifically at the effect of testosterone in obese men on low calorie diets stating 'among obese men with low to low-normal testosterone submitted to a weight loss program, testosterone treatment decreased total fat mass and visceral adipose tissue, and protected against loss of total and appendicular lean mass.' and concluded 'Among obese men with a low to low-normal testosterone typical for the majority of obese men, testosterone treatment augmented diet-induced loss of total fat and visceral fat mass, and preserved lean mass so that, in contrast to placebo-treated men who lost both lean and fat mass, diet-induced weight loss during testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to the loss of body fat.'

And this does not take into account any of the additional motivatory factors that AAS can add while dieting and gymming.

It is also important to note that while there are many negative impacts on testosterone caused by obesity, there is very little evidence of the reverse.

That is, there is no substantial evidence to suggest any additional negative impacts occur from AAS use if you are obese, compared to fit.

In fact studies such as this one from 1993 looking at testosterone treatment in obese men concluded; 'In summary, substitution of abdominally obese men with T results in improvements of their risk factor profile for cardiovascular disease and non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus, as well as in a diminution of visceral fat mass. The effects seem to be specific for T, and treatment is apparently not followed by unwanted reactions.

We know that steroid use comes with a range of negative consequences, but why is there a persistant myth within steroid communities that these consequences are somehow worse for regular overweight Joe.

And so, the evidence seems pretty clear to me that you can either choose to diet with diminishing returns and then work to claw back muscle and metabolic losses after the fact by juicing up and hitting the gym ... or you can start running straight out the gate with AAS and have improved mood and willpower, preserve and even build muscle in a deficit, reduce visceral fat, and improve other health markers, all while increasing metabolic efficiency the longer you persist and the more muscle you build.

we've seen a lot of people use gear right off the bat though and it hasn't worked out well. its more optimal to build a strong base first. but by all means let's see you be one of guys who can go against conventional wisdom

A lot of these studies are based on people who are on TRT dosages and who have done different things in their life, etc.. So there don't really translate to real life situations in a lot of cases.

 

[LevButlerov]

Coming into week 6 and beginning my first extended fast, aiming for 60 hours but may extend to 72 depending on how I feel.

In the past with extended fasts I have always gone in with a average sized meal prior, this may prove harder than those times as I estimate my daily calories to be 1500 ish, just based on portion size and ingredients.

I have continued to be disappointed with the overall numbers on the scales dropping, weighing in this morning at 98.1kg which is a total 6.1kg lost in just over 6 weeks. The total fat lost is higher, however I will not meet my target weight of around 75kg by week 16 at this rate. I will post updated body comp charts and photos as complete week 8.

I thought these two comments are both good points and worth addressing.




There is a really good article released in the Journal of Clinical Medicine in 2024 which looks at the relationship between body composition and metabolic rate where the author was looking at how fat and muscle work to impact resting metabolic rate.

The results are extremely interesting stating "The main finding of this study was the strong positive correlation between muscle mass and RMR, with no impact observed for total FM (fat mass) or liver fat on RMR" which in a nutshell means that lean muscle mass is essentially the only thing that matters when improving resting metabolic rate.

They also noted 'Furthermore, in the aforementioned study, researchers found that for each kilogram gain in FFM, RMR was augmented by 28 kcal/day... Our own research yielded similar results, showing an increase of 24 kcal/day.'

This is particularly important because each kg of muscle gained adds up to around 28 cals to the daily metabolic rate with the inverse also being true.

The authors state about calorie restricted diets; 'An additional factor that influences RMR is the implementation of energy restriction, as observed in weight loss interventions through reduced energy intake. This practice, named metabolic adaptation, leads to a decrease in RMR as a biological response to energy restriction and may elucidate the difficulty in properly calculating patient’s energy needs, as well as maintaining weight loss associated with low-calorie diets '

And so, when dieting over time, as calories are restricted and weight is lost, the overall efficiency of the diet decreases as time goes on. Metabolic adaption kicks in, metabolism is slowed, BMR reduces and muscle loss increases. Usually the answer to try and prevent this as much as possible is to use protein rich diets etc to help mitgate these effects or by using other drugs like tirz/reta etc.

These methods though are highly inefficient when compared to using steroids simultaneous with dieting. As mentioned in earlier posts studies show that muscle loss can be totally prevented on low and very low calorie diets, and even gained in some people.

A study I linked previously from 2016 looked specifically at the effect of testosterone in obese men on low calorie diets stating 'among obese men with low to low-normal testosterone submitted to a weight loss program, testosterone treatment decreased total fat mass and visceral adipose tissue, and protected against loss of total and appendicular lean mass.' and concluded 'Among obese men with a low to low-normal testosterone typical for the majority of obese men, testosterone treatment augmented diet-induced loss of total fat and visceral fat mass, and preserved lean mass so that, in contrast to placebo-treated men who lost both lean and fat mass, diet-induced weight loss during testosterone treatment was almost exclusively due to the loss of body fat.'

And this does not take into account any of the additional motivatory factors that AAS can add while dieting and gymming.

It is also important to note that while there are many negative impacts on testosterone caused by obesity, there is very little evidence of the reverse.

That is, there is no substantial evidence to suggest any additional negative impacts occur from AAS use if you are obese, compared to fit.

In fact studies such as this one from 1993 looking at testosterone treatment in obese men concluded; 'In summary, substitution of abdominally obese men with T results in improvements of their risk factor profile for cardiovascular disease and non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus, as well as in a diminution of visceral fat mass. The effects seem to be specific for T, and treatment is apparently not followed by unwanted reactions.

We know that steroid use comes with a range of negative consequences, but why is there a persistant myth within steroid communities that these consequences are somehow worse for regular overweight Joe.

And so, the evidence seems pretty clear to me that you can either choose to diet with diminishing returns and then work to claw back muscle and metabolic losses after the fact by juicing up and hitting the gym ... or you can start running straight out the gate with AAS and have improved mood and willpower, preserve and even build muscle in a deficit, reduce visceral fat, and improve other health markers, all while increasing metabolic efficiency the longer you persist and the more muscle you build.

That’s a powerful and well thoughtout update today @shoe You’ve broken down the research clearly, and your understanding of the muscle metabolic relationship is spot on. Preserving lean mass while cutting is everything, and your logic connecting the 28 kcal per kg RMR gain to AAS use for maintaining muscle under deficit is both practical and evidence backed. The fast will definitely push adaptive signals, but your hormone support and high protein intake should protect muscle loss.

Training wise, you’re doing this right by maintaining frequency even while calories are low. The steady 6kg loss with visible fat reduction is fat coming off, not just water. The next phase after the fast will be key for metabolic reset, so document every step and keep logging your composition data and workouts, it’s one of the most dialed and data rich logs in the EVO family now!

 

[shoe]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

 

[LevButlerov]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

Good control finishing 60 hours clean, weight drop to 97kg and holding steady shows fat loss not water rebound.

Very impressive to see you fasting that long @shoe

 

[RickRock]

Good job on the fast brother, and staying disciplined

 

[Mobster]

60 hours is a great time for a fast.

 

[stevesmi]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

@shoe nice job on the fasting man. It's good to see that. Just make sure that when you break the fast it's not with anything not good because it will go right through you and you'll have really bad diarrhea. Also keep in mind it's harder to fast when you're using steroids, especially something like Trenbolone.

 

[ceo]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

bros i proud of you. that a long fast. now next time you can try 5 days and so on. @shoe

 

[ROIDDERS]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

Congratulations on doing such a long, fast. @shoe That earns you a lot of respect from me for sure. It shows that you have the dedication and the commitment to really do whatever you want.

 

[2Thick]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

@shoe Wow, 60 hours is 2.5 days. That's not bad at all. you should be proud of yourself. Is this the longest fast that you have ever done?

 

[Ulter]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

Losing 7 kg is a fantastic accomplishment so far, but I feel like you still have a lot of improvement to go. I'm expecting big things out of you. Keep it going. @shoe

 

[Tiger Salman Khan]

Well I am currently sitting at hour 58 of my 60 hour fast, and it went a lot easier than I suspected. Very little hunger and good energy and mood thoughout. I feel I could easily extend to 72 hours, however the son has a halloween party in the afternoon and everyone is cooking a dish, so it seems like an appropriate time to end and be social.

In the first 36 hours of the fast I instantly dropped 600g dropping me to the lowest weight so far, sitting at 97.5kg, which is a total loss of 7kg.

Interestingly this morning, 24 hours after the last reading, I weighed in exactly the same, again at 97.5kg despite adding a 9km walk while fasted yesterday.

Overall to date, general trends are looking good. Overall weight loss appears to have accelerated in the last week.

View attachment 135887
Fat loss has continued to drop, and net losses are at approx 6.8kg, which is very similar to total weight lost. Muscle mass although having a quick pick up at the start of the cycle seems to be sitting in a tight range, between approx 37kg and 38kg.

This lack of increase in muscle mass is likely because of the low calorie diet sitting at approx 1500 cals per day, and is consistent with expectations based on my previous post.

I would however like to see this pick up, and am considering raising calories and protein after the 8 week mark next weeekend to around 1800 cals to support some additional muscle growth.

View attachment 135888

View attachment 135889

@shoe you are making this look easy....have tried fasting it is tough but you nailed it....amazing job.......

 

[shoe]

Thanks for the comments guys, I have consitently incorporated long fasts into diets and am lucky that once a decision is made that it is happening, my body just accepts its fate and gets on with it.

The thing that has pleased me the most about this fast though is that typically once you complete the fast and have something to eat the next day you regain a good portion of that weight back just because of the food sitting in your stomach and the extra water retention.

The two days following this fast however has seen me continue to drop 200g and 400g respectively for a current weight of 96.9kg.

I am shortly about to hit the gym for some shoulders, feeling great energy wise, lifts have been weak AF since starting, roughly the equivalent of a motivated school girl, but are increasing.

 

[LevButlerov]

Thanks for the comments guys, I have consitently incorporated long fasts into diets and am lucky that once a decision is made that it is happening, my body just accepts its fate and gets on with it.

The thing that has pleased me the most about this fast though is that typically once you complete the fast and have something to eat the next day you regain a good portion of that weight back just because of the food sitting in your stomach and the extra water retention.

The two days following this fast however has seen me continue to drop 200g and 400g respectively for a current weight of 96.9kg.

I am shortly about to hit the gym for some shoulders, feeling great energy wise, lifts have been weak AF since starting, roughly the equivalent of a motivated school girl, but are increasing.

Good to hear the fast worked smoothly and bodyweight still dropping after refeed, that’s clean fat loss. @shoe
Fasting is the best for overall health long term too, lets do it more.

Energy bounce is a good sign, shoulder day will help fill you out again fast.

 

[shoe]

Afternoon brothers and sisters, 8 weeks into cycle hit today and I thought I would provide some updates.

Overall cycle has been progressing beautifully overall. I have conitnued to have no sleep disturbances and the tren night sweats that I have had consistently in the past dont exist this cycle at all, which is incredible. My body has continued much cooler than ever before. I used to sit in my office with the AC cranked to 18o, now at 24o C i turn it off at intervals because feel chilly. Since the reta is the only new substance I am going to put it down to a side effect. I find this positive, I feel cooler at night and during the day, and save on the electricity too!

Reta at 3mg seems to be a sweet spot. I dont feel much in the way of any side effects or anything at all to tell me I am taking it until dinner time, when it severely limits food consumption. The only side of note (apart from the cooling) is it is really terrible on the shitting side of things, I havent had a decent shit since I started.

Weight wise I weighed in this morning at 96.2kg. This is a total loss of 8.3kg. Fat loss has come in slightly higher at 9.3kg to date. This is not as far along as I had hoped by this stage, however it is consistent drops and so I am content to wait and reassess another month and tighten if required. Note that total fat loss is likely greater than this, since I didnt start measuring until a couple of weeks into cycle.

Muscle mass appears to be picking up, both visually and measured. Muscle mass is up around 1-1.5kg or so.

I have barely taken the melanotan in the last month, I want to change that in the next month.

Here are some week 8 pics and charts;

 

[shoe]

And I missed a quick comment on my ongoing gyno concerns. It has been a consistent and ongoing problem from every cycle, i switched from adex to aromasin this cycle to try and prevent but I still felt signs after a few weeks. Running 12.5mg twice week on jab days. I added nolva in at 40mg daily for about 10 days, with little change.

I have as of last week increased aromasin dose to 25mg on Friday jab and back to 12.5mg on Mondays. I hope this makes a difference. I'm going to monitor symptoms of crashing estrogen carefully and if gyno symptoms persist I'm going to have to book a blood test to check levels.

 

[LevButlerov]

Afternoon brothers and sisters, 8 weeks into cycle hit today and I thought I would provide some updates.

Overall cycle has been progressing beautifully overall. I have conitnued to have no sleep disturbances and the tren night sweats that I have had consistently in the past dont exist this cycle at all, which is incredible. My body has continued much cooler than ever before. I used to sit in my office with the AC cranked to 18o, now at 24o C i turn it off at intervals because feel chilly. Since the reta is the only new substance I am going to put it down to a side effect. I find this positive, I feel cooler at night and during the day, and save on the electricity too!

Reta at 3mg seems to be a sweet spot. I dont feel much in the way of any side effects or anything at all to tell me I am taking it until dinner time, when it severely limits food consumption. The only side of note (apart from the cooling) is it is really terrible on the shitting side of things, I havent had a decent shit since I started.

Weight wise I weighed in this morning at 96.2kg. This is a total loss of 8.3kg. Fat loss has come in slightly higher at 9.3kg to date. This is not as far along as I had hoped by this stage, however it is consistent drops and so I am content to wait and reassess another month and tighten if required. Note that total fat loss is likely greater than this, since I didnt start measuring until a couple of weeks into cycle.

Muscle mass appears to be picking up, both visually and measured. Muscle mass is up around 1-1.5kg or so.

I have barely taken the melanotan in the last month, I want to change that in the next month.

Here are some week 8 pics and charts;

View attachment 139412

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View attachment 139414

View attachment 139415

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You look good and lean in the pics, serious recomposition happening. @shoe

Reta at 3mg seems right for now,

And I missed a quick comment on my ongoing gyno concerns. It has been a consistent and ongoing problem from every cycle, i switched from adex to aromasin this cycle to try and prevent but I still felt signs after a few weeks. Running 12.5mg twice week on jab days. I added nolva in at 40mg daily for about 10 days, with little change.

I have as of last week increased aromasin dose to 25mg on Friday jab and back to 12.5mg on Mondays. I hope this makes a difference. I'm going to monitor symptoms of crashing estrogen carefully and if gyno symptoms persist I'm going to have to book a blood test to check levels.

keep Aromasin at 12.5mg twice a week till the gyno calms before bumping again.
you should be doing tamoxifen mostly

 

[stevesmi]

Afternoon brothers and sisters, 8 weeks into cycle hit today and I thought I would provide some updates.

Overall cycle has been progressing beautifully overall. I have conitnued to have no sleep disturbances and the tren night sweats that I have had consistently in the past dont exist this cycle at all, which is incredible. My body has continued much cooler than ever before. I used to sit in my office with the AC cranked to 18o, now at 24o C i turn it off at intervals because feel chilly. Since the reta is the only new substance I am going to put it down to a side effect. I find this positive, I feel cooler at night and during the day, and save on the electricity too!

Reta at 3mg seems to be a sweet spot. I dont feel much in the way of any side effects or anything at all to tell me I am taking it until dinner time, when it severely limits food consumption. The only side of note (apart from the cooling) is it is really terrible on the shitting side of things, I havent had a decent shit since I started.

Weight wise I weighed in this morning at 96.2kg. This is a total loss of 8.3kg. Fat loss has come in slightly higher at 9.3kg to date. This is not as far along as I had hoped by this stage, however it is consistent drops and so I am content to wait and reassess another month and tighten if required. Note that total fat loss is likely greater than this, since I didnt start measuring until a couple of weeks into cycle.

Muscle mass appears to be picking up, both visually and measured. Muscle mass is up around 1-1.5kg or so.

I have barely taken the melanotan in the last month, I want to change that in the next month.

Here are some week 8 pics and charts;

View attachment 139412

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@shoe I'm definitely seeing some improvements coming on. You should start getting on a roll and start losing body fat pretty quickly. Keep the protocol going.

 

[shoe]

@shoe I'm definitely seeing some improvements coming on. You should start getting on a roll and start losing body fat pretty quickly. Keep the protocol going.

Cheers, weight is coming off faster now and really starting to feel changes in strength every few days.

keep Aromasin at 12.5mg twice a week till the gyno calms before bumping again.

I have been at 12.5mg twice per week since the start, and it has not been enough. Even with nolva at 40mg per day on top there was no change. Are you certain I should not bump the aromasin? Seems to me that too much test is aromatising and the 12.5mg twice per week is not keeping up...

 

[stevesmi]

Cheers, weight is coming off faster now and really starting to feel changes in strength every few days.



I have been at 12.5mg twice per week since the start, and it has not been enough. Even with nolva at 40mg per day on top there was no change. Are you certain I should not bump the aromasin? Seems to me that too much test is aromatising and the 12.5mg twice per week is not keeping up...

That is great

 

[2Thick]

Afternoon brothers and sisters, 8 weeks into cycle hit today and I thought I would provide some updates.

Overall cycle has been progressing beautifully overall. I have conitnued to have no sleep disturbances and the tren night sweats that I have had consistently in the past dont exist this cycle at all, which is incredible. My body has continued much cooler than ever before. I used to sit in my office with the AC cranked to 18o, now at 24o C i turn it off at intervals because feel chilly. Since the reta is the only new substance I am going to put it down to a side effect. I find this positive, I feel cooler at night and during the day, and save on the electricity too!

Reta at 3mg seems to be a sweet spot. I dont feel much in the way of any side effects or anything at all to tell me I am taking it until dinner time, when it severely limits food consumption. The only side of note (apart from the cooling) is it is really terrible on the shitting side of things, I havent had a decent shit since I started.

Weight wise I weighed in this morning at 96.2kg. This is a total loss of 8.3kg. Fat loss has come in slightly higher at 9.3kg to date. This is not as far along as I had hoped by this stage, however it is consistent drops and so I am content to wait and reassess another month and tighten if required. Note that total fat loss is likely greater than this, since I didnt start measuring until a couple of weeks into cycle.

Muscle mass appears to be picking up, both visually and measured. Muscle mass is up around 1-1.5kg or so.

I have barely taken the melanotan in the last month, I want to change that in the next month.

Here are some week 8 pics and charts;

View attachment 139412

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fat is falling off a cliff. nice work on that. you still have a lot of room to improve so don't take your foot off the gas! @shoe