CAUTIONARY TALE - NEWBIE CRASHES E2

[DataDude]

Well, despite some good advice I've received from several among various AAS forums/communities, I've still managed to fuck up. This is a cautionary tale and I'll post more results to this thread as things develop. Feel free to criticize, encourage, or provide feedback.

I purchased Test from Dragon Pharma (through Naps). I intended on starting with a dose of 500mg a week, but my nipples started to feel like they were burning after my first injection of 250mg, also there was an unusual tenderness on the side of my pec. Out of an abundance of caution, I lowered the dose to 225mg per week, split into (3) 75mg injections M/W/F. I started taking Arimidex and Nolvadex immediately after the side effects and felt like they improved (even though they didn't completely go away). I continued taking 1/4 tablet of Arimidex (0.25mg) twice a week, which then I dropped to once a week, and this last week I stopped altogether. Nolvadex I took every day, 20mg a day at first, which then I lowered to 10mg a day. I wasn't too concerned about my side effects anymore because I felt like I was implementing a conservative protocol while I waited to get labs done... but there were weird things that were happening during my workouts. I felt like I was starting to get light headed after tough sets, I was feeling a little more tired during the day, and my blood pressure was consistently around 95/55.

I've been hoping to get my bloodwork done since the day I started, so I was excited to do that. I got my labs done a few days ago (still waiting on the Free and Total Test results) and my Estradiol values stood out immediately; <5 pg/mL. When I called the lab to confirm, they said my values were so low that it barely registers and they can't give me an accurate number other than "less than 5 pg/mL". Ironically, this whole time I had convinced myself that I was experiencing side effects of high estrogen and started taking powerful AI's hoping to counter that... when in reality, my estrogen was probably fine and I was making that worse. I let my paranoia get the best of me. The good news is I don't feel particularly shitty, so I'll have to see how this affects me in the weeks to come. I'm going to continue taking my Testosterone at 225mg a week while I go back to doing research and figuring out how to normalize my body. I'm still training hard and see this as a learning experience. Going forward I'm not touching an AI until I confirm the need through bloodwork (which I will get done monthly until I feel comfortable).

I'm open to any advice you guys have. I'm still learning, I'm still making mistakes, and I'm still confident I'll get this right eventually. Thanks!

 

[DataDude]

Not included in these images is the bloodwork I had done several weeks ago before starting (didn't test for estradiol), and noticed that my WBC count was 4.3, and has since shot up above 10. This seems unusual to me, but just something I've definitely noticed. My BUN has also increased, though it was already high at 25... but that has also gone up in the past few weeks.

 

[stevesmi]

very simple

avoid aromatizing compounds and you won't need an AI in the future

as much as guys want to argue with me about this topic, the truth is bodybuilders for 50 years never used test in their cycles and they did just fine. this you need test as your base or you should run test as a first cycle started in the 2000's among american bro scientists on forums.

you can run an EQ cycle by itself with an oral, or primo, etc. even deca solo would be better here. if you are getting tenderness why even touch test or dbol again? makes no sense. listen to your body

also BUN levels being high could simply be you are a big meathead bodybuilder which is normal. i don't know your stats so i'm guessing there

and your glucose is too high. when was the last time you fasted? need to get on that ASAP or you are headed to diabetes

 

[hebertan41]

Well, despite some good advice I've received from several among various AAS forums/communities, I've still managed to fuck up. This is a cautionary tale and I'll post more results to this thread as things develop. Feel free to criticize, encourage, or provide feedback.

I purchased Test from Dragon Pharma (through Naps). I intended on starting with a dose of 500mg a week, but my nipples started to feel like they were burning after my first injection of 250mg, also there was an unusual tenderness on the side of my pec. Out of an abundance of caution, I lowered the dose to 225mg per week, split into (3) 75mg injections M/W/F. I started taking Arimidex and Nolvadex immediately after the side effects and felt like they improved (even though they didn't completely go away). I continued taking 1/4 tablet of Arimidex (0.25mg) twice a week, which then I dropped to once a week, and this last week I stopped altogether. Nolvadex I took every day, 20mg a day at first, which then I lowered to 10mg a day. I wasn't too concerned about my side effects anymore because I felt like I was implementing a conservative protocol while I waited to get labs done... but there were weird things that were happening during my workouts. I felt like I was starting to get light headed after tough sets, I was feeling a little more tired during the day, and my blood pressure was consistently around 95/55.

I've been hoping to get my bloodwork done since the day I started, so I was excited to do that. I got my labs done a few days ago (still waiting on the Free and Total Test results) and my Estradiol values stood out immediately; <5 pg/mL. When I called the lab to confirm, they said my values were so low that it barely registers and they can't give me an accurate number other than "less than 5 pg/mL". Ironically, this whole time I had convinced myself that I was experiencing side effects of high estrogen and started taking powerful AI's hoping to counter that... when in reality, my estrogen was probably fine and I was making that worse. I let my paranoia get the best of me. The good news is I don't feel particularly shitty, so I'll have to see how this affects me in the weeks to come. I'm going to continue taking my Testosterone at 225mg a week while I go back to doing research and figuring out how to normalize my body. I'm still training hard and see this as a learning experience. Going forward I'm not touching an AI until I confirm the need through bloodwork (which I will get done monthly until I feel comfortable).

I'm open to any advice you guys have. I'm still learning, I'm still making mistakes, and I'm still confident I'll get this right eventually. Thanks!

You know the side effects you were feeling could have been progesterone, or prolactin. I've heard of guys getting prolactin sides even from straight testosterone if they are prone to it.

 

[Mobster]

Another reason for taking an AI from day one. Cos why not?

 

[DataDude]

very simple

avoid aromatizing compounds and you won't need an AI in the future

as much as guys want to argue with me about this topic, the truth is bodybuilders for 50 years never used test in their cycles and they did just fine. this you need test as your base or you should run test as a first cycle started in the 2000's among american bro scientists on forums.

you can run an EQ cycle by itself with an oral, or primo, etc. even deca solo would be better here. if you are getting tenderness why even touch test or dbol again? makes no sense. listen to your body

also BUN levels being high could simply be you are a big meathead bodybuilder which is normal. i don't know your stats so i'm guessing there

and your glucose is too high. when was the last time you fasted? need to get on that ASAP or you are headed to diabetes

Thanks for the reply Steve. I'm a fan of the podcast, and I appreciate your input. I actually fast Monday through Friday 16/8 (I make and join my kids for breakfast on the weekends). Every few weeks, I'll do a water fast for 24 hours. My glucose is high in those labs because I was specifically told when I scheduled that lab appointment I didn't need to fast, but then they told me when I got there it would affect my glucose. Typically, my glucose reading is in the low 80's. My diet is very well managed and probably the most disciplined part of my lifestyle (has been since I got out of the Army in 2012).

As for my BUN, I don't know what's up with that result. I'm not what most would consider a big "meathead". I'm actually a "petite" guy, been an endurance-style athlete since I was a teenager (combat sports, advanced calisthenics, mountain climbing, etc.). I walk around at 5'5, 135lbs, 15% BF. I appear fit, but not what most would associate with a bodybuilding physique. I always did some weight training, but lately I'm trying to switch gears and move primarily towards weight training. My doctor has told me I'm probably not drinking enough water which may be affecting my BUN, or that it could be heavy training.

I agree that I need to listen to my body. If I'm being honest with myself and others, one of my character flaws is that I can get inside my head and misinterpret symptoms. Perhaps removing Test altogether is what's best. I'm not sold yet on any particular protocol because I'm pretty much learning on the go. I'll do whatever works, I just want to make sure I have objective physical and paper results to reference. Do you think I should I stop taking Testosterone now? Or do you think I should continue and get labs again in a month to see how my body is responding without any AI?

Thanks again, I really appreciate your time.

 

[Kay33]

Thanks for the reply Steve. I'm a fan of the podcast, and I appreciate your input. I actually fast Monday through Friday 16/8 (I make and join my kids for breakfast on the weekends). Every few weeks, I'll do a water fast for 24 hours. My glucose is high in those labs because I was specifically told when I scheduled that lab appointment I didn't need to fast, but then they told me when I got there it would affect my glucose. Typically, my glucose reading is in the low 80's. My diet is very well managed and probably the most disciplined part of my lifestyle (has been since I got out of the Army in 2012).

As for my BUN, I don't know what's up with that result. I'm not what most would consider a big "meathead". I'm actually a "petite" guy, been an endurance-style athlete since I was a teenager (combat sports, advanced calisthenics, mountain climbing, etc.). I walk around at 5'5, 135lbs, 15% BF. I appear fit, but not what most would associate with a bodybuilding physique. I always did some weight training, but lately I'm trying to switch gears and move primarily towards weight training. My doctor has told me I'm probably not drinking enough water which may be affecting my BUN, or that it could be heavy training.

I agree that I need to listen to my body. If I'm being honest with myself and others, one of my character flaws is that I can get inside my head and misinterpret symptoms. Perhaps removing Test altogether is what's best. I'm not sold yet on any particular protocol because I'm pretty much learning on the go. I'll do whatever works, I just want to make sure I have objective physical and paper results to reference. Do you think I should I stop taking Testosterone now? Or do you think I should continue and get labs again in a month to see how my body is responding without any AI?

Thanks again, I really appreciate your time.

I would stay with using testosterone myself, why stop now when you're so far ahead? Keep the cycle going just lay off the AIs for now.

 

[stevesmi]

Thanks for the reply Steve. I'm a fan of the podcast, and I appreciate your input. I actually fast Monday through Friday 16/8 (I make and join my kids for breakfast on the weekends). Every few weeks, I'll do a water fast for 24 hours. My glucose is high in those labs because I was specifically told when I scheduled that lab appointment I didn't need to fast, but then they told me when I got there it would affect my glucose. Typically, my glucose reading is in the low 80's. My diet is very well managed and probably the most disciplined part of my lifestyle (has been since I got out of the Army in 2012).

As for my BUN, I don't know what's up with that result. I'm not what most would consider a big "meathead". I'm actually a "petite" guy, been an endurance-style athlete since I was a teenager (combat sports, advanced calisthenics, mountain climbing, etc.). I walk around at 5'5, 135lbs, 15% BF. I appear fit, but not what most would associate with a bodybuilding physique. I always did some weight training, but lately I'm trying to switch gears and move primarily towards weight training. My doctor has told me I'm probably not drinking enough water which may be affecting my BUN, or that it could be heavy training.

I agree that I need to listen to my body. If I'm being honest with myself and others, one of my character flaws is that I can get inside my head and misinterpret symptoms. Perhaps removing Test altogether is what's best. I'm not sold yet on any particular protocol because I'm pretty much learning on the go. I'll do whatever works, I just want to make sure I have objective physical and paper results to reference. Do you think I should I stop taking Testosterone now? Or do you think I should continue and get labs again in a month to see how my body is responding without any AI?

Thanks again, I really appreciate your time.

thanks for those kind words, glad you are a fan of the podcast

when your body is breaking down and repairing muscle it can spike BUN numbers too. if you want to test things out just for sure don't train for 2 weeks then go get bloods done. but i am confident that is what is causing that number to be high and nothing to be concerned about

to answer your question i would finish the cycle and re-evaluate things after. i have dealt with clients who just cannot use testosterone at any dosage without getting flareups, it just isn't meant for them. so in your case you take an AI, monitor your bloods, and still crash your E. to me it doesnot make sense to torture yourself going forward since you are doing everything already correct. just don't be scared to run a cycle without testosterone in the future, that might be the simplest solution. or just run test at a TRT dose 100mg a week with say 500mg EQ for a nice cycle and kickstart things with some Tbol or var? try that next time would be my advice

 

[Npcclassicphysique champ]

It would make sense for the OP to keep going with this testosterone cycle, just keep AIs very low. If you were using 0.25mgs of arimidex maybe you were using more? what brand were you using? I've heard of guys getting bad arimidex tabs and they were overdosed.

Stick to your testosterone cycle and just do 10mgs nolvadex to keep potential sides down E4D, I think you'll do just fine.

 

[BodyMonster34]

bro if you pushing too hard with AI that is problem why yo crashed.

 

[JasonPriest]

thanks for those kind words, glad you are a fan of the podcast

when your body is breaking down and repairing muscle it can spike BUN numbers too. if you want to test things out just for sure don't train for 2 weeks then go get bloods done. but i am confident that is what is causing that number to be high and nothing to be concerned about

to answer your question i would finish the cycle and re-evaluate things after. i have dealt with clients who just cannot use testosterone at any dosage without getting flareups, it just isn't meant for them. so in your case you take an AI, monitor your bloods, and still crash your E. to me it doesnot make sense to torture yourself going forward since you are doing everything already correct. just don't be scared to run a cycle without testosterone in the future, that might be the simplest solution. or just run test at a TRT dose 100mg a week with say 500mg EQ for a nice cycle and kickstart things with some Tbol or var? try that next time would be my advice

This is advice from the expert right here.

 

[LevButlerov]

bro if you pushing too hard with AI that is problem why yo crashed.

He was using 0.25mgs of arimidex 2 times per week, I wouldn't call that pushing to hard with an AI. We regularly recommend members use 12.5mgs aromasin EOD, that's a stronger choice than arimidex 2x/week @ .25mgs.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, despite some good advice I've received from several among various AAS forums/communities, I've still managed to fuck up. This is a cautionary tale and I'll post more results to this thread as things develop. Feel free to criticize, encourage, or provide feedback.

I purchased Test from Dragon Pharma (through Naps). I intended on starting with a dose of 500mg a week, but my nipples started to feel like they were burning after my first injection of 250mg, also there was an unusual tenderness on the side of my pec. Out of an abundance of caution, I lowered the dose to 225mg per week, split into (3) 75mg injections M/W/F. I started taking Arimidex and Nolvadex immediately after the side effects and felt like they improved (even though they didn't completely go away). I continued taking 1/4 tablet of Arimidex (0.25mg) twice a week, which then I dropped to once a week, and this last week I stopped altogether. Nolvadex I took every day, 20mg a day at first, which then I lowered to 10mg a day. I wasn't too concerned about my side effects anymore because I felt like I was implementing a conservative protocol while I waited to get labs done... but there were weird things that were happening during my workouts. I felt like I was starting to get light headed after tough sets, I was feeling a little more tired during the day, and my blood pressure was consistently around 95/55.

I've been hoping to get my bloodwork done since the day I started, so I was excited to do that. I got my labs done a few days ago (still waiting on the Free and Total Test results) and my Estradiol values stood out immediately; <5 pg/mL. When I called the lab to confirm, they said my values were so low that it barely registers and they can't give me an accurate number other than "less than 5 pg/mL". Ironically, this whole time I had convinced myself that I was experiencing side effects of high estrogen and started taking powerful AI's hoping to counter that... when in reality, my estrogen was probably fine and I was making that worse. I let my paranoia get the best of me. The good news is I don't feel particularly shitty, so I'll have to see how this affects me in the weeks to come. I'm going to continue taking my Testosterone at 225mg a week while I go back to doing research and figuring out how to normalize my body. I'm still training hard and see this as a learning experience. Going forward I'm not touching an AI until I confirm the need through bloodwork (which I will get done monthly until I feel comfortable).

I'm open to any advice you guys have. I'm still learning, I'm still making mistakes, and I'm still confident I'll get this right eventually. Thanks!

225mgs of testosterone is not a high dose, that's close to TRT, you can keep taking this dose until you are more calm. If you're doing 225mgs, you don't need an AI.

You should consider switching steroids, try using trenbolone 200mgs with winstrol 50mgs, that's a much better cycle and no estrogen ups and downs.

 

[DataDude]

It would make sense for the OP to keep going with this testosterone cycle, just keep AIs very low. If you were using 0.25mgs of arimidex maybe you were using more? what brand were you using? I've heard of guys getting bad arimidex tabs and they were overdosed.

Stick to your testosterone cycle and just do 10mgs nolvadex to keep potential sides down E4D, I think you'll do just fine.

Thanks for the response. The Testosterone I ordered came from Dragon Pharma, the Nolvadex and Arimidex came from Geneza (all ordered through Naps). The very first time I took Arimidex I took 0.5mg (half tablet), then dropped the dose afterwards. So, I actually took 0.75mg Arimidex my first week.

He was using 0.25mgs of arimidex 2 times per week, I wouldn't call that pushing to hard with an AI. We regularly recommend members use 12.5mgs aromasin EOD, that's a stronger choice than arimidex 2x/week @ .25mgs.

- - - Updated - - -



225mgs of testosterone is not a high dose, that's close to TRT, you can keep taking this dose until you are more calm. If you're doing 225mgs, you don't need an AI.

You should consider switching steroids, try using trenbolone 200mgs with winstrol 50mgs, that's a much better cycle and no estrogen ups and downs.

This is an interesting position. Steve had also responded suggesting a Testosterone base is unnecessary. Why do you suggest a Tren/Winny combo, and what are the negatives of a cycle like this? Thanks in advance for helping me understand it.

 

[Tiger Salman Khan]

dont push too hard.. go slow on your cycle

 

[Austin316]

Thanks for the response. The Testosterone I ordered came from Dragon Pharma, the Nolvadex and Arimidex came from Geneza (all ordered through Naps). The very first time I took Arimidex I took 0.5mg (half tablet), then dropped the dose afterwards. So, I actually took 0.75mg Arimidex my first week.




This is an interesting position. Steve had also responded suggesting a Testosterone base is unnecessary. Why do you suggest a Tren/Winny combo, and what are the negatives of a cycle like this? Thanks in advance for helping me understand it.

I don't believe testosterone base is always needed, some guys just don't respond well to test. One of my most hardcore cycles with the best results was 400mgs of trenbolone enanthate with 30mgs of anavar and 30mgs of winstrol, wow! that was a cycle, I got shredded like a mofo.

 

[Mobster]

I don't believe testosterone base is always needed, some guys just don't respond well to test. One of my most hardcore cycles with the best results was 400mgs of trenbolone enanthate with 30mgs of anavar and 30mgs of winstrol, wow! that was a cycle, I got shredded like a mofo.

Very true. I may well be one such user.

 

[Vadim Fedorov]

225-250mgs is not high dose of test, stay with it and after full PCT

 

[RoySimpson]

Just make sure youre on top of your PCT!

 

[ballin2504]

Great post and thanks for sharing. The guys have given a lot of good information.

 

[Tazz]

thanks for sharing !

 

[DataDude]

Well, despite some good advice I've received from several among various AAS forums/communities, I've still managed to fuck up. This is a cautionary tale and I'll post more results to this thread as things develop. Feel free to criticize, encourage, or provide feedback.

I purchased Test from Dragon Pharma (through Naps). I intended on starting with a dose of 500mg a week, but my nipples started to feel like they were burning after my first injection of 250mg, also there was an unusual tenderness on the side of my pec. Out of an abundance of caution, I lowered the dose to 225mg per week, split into (3) 75mg injections M/W/F. I started taking Arimidex and Nolvadex immediately after the side effects and felt like they improved (even though they didn't completely go away). I continued taking 1/4 tablet of Arimidex (0.25mg) twice a week, which then I dropped to once a week, and this last week I stopped altogether. Nolvadex I took every day, 20mg a day at first, which then I lowered to 10mg a day. I wasn't too concerned about my side effects anymore because I felt like I was implementing a conservative protocol while I waited to get labs done... but there were weird things that were happening during my workouts. I felt like I was starting to get light headed after tough sets, I was feeling a little more tired during the day, and my blood pressure was consistently around 95/55.

I've been hoping to get my bloodwork done since the day I started, so I was excited to do that. I got my labs done a few days ago (still waiting on the Free and Total Test results) and my Estradiol values stood out immediately; <5 pg/mL. When I called the lab to confirm, they said my values were so low that it barely registers and they can't give me an accurate number other than "less than 5 pg/mL". Ironically, this whole time I had convinced myself that I was experiencing side effects of high estrogen and started taking powerful AI's hoping to counter that... when in reality, my estrogen was probably fine and I was making that worse. I let my paranoia get the best of me. The good news is I don't feel particularly shitty, so I'll have to see how this affects me in the weeks to come. I'm going to continue taking my Testosterone at 225mg a week while I go back to doing research and figuring out how to normalize my body. I'm still training hard and see this as a learning experience. Going forward I'm not touching an AI until I confirm the need through bloodwork (which I will get done monthly until I feel comfortable).

I'm open to any advice you guys have. I'm still learning, I'm still making mistakes, and I'm still confident I'll get this right eventually. Thanks!

Ok, Testosterone results just came in! My product is legit. I was hesitant at first with Naps, but after carefully monitoring my labs and documenting my doses I can confirm they are legit. I'm using Test-E 250 from Dragon Pharma. Please buy with confidence... please don't take an AI unless you need it. Please, if you are new to this forum or just passing through, listen to veterans on here. Even if you don't like what they have to say, or how they say it, they know what they're talking about. Good luck everyone. I'm super pumped to keep on going.

 

[Masonic Bodybuilder]

Very detailed and informed posting in this thread. This is the type of conversation that can really help guys starting out or advanced. Just another reason blood work is so important too.

 

[Echos]

Correct me if I’m wrong here.... but running test at 225mg/wk and only getting a total Test of 780...that seems pretty low. Even if you had low T to start with...I’d think it would be higher than this. Maybe 1500 or more. What do you guys say?

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Correct me if I’m wrong here.... but running test at 225mg/wk and only getting a total Test of 780...that seems pretty low. Even if you had low T to start with...I’d think it would be higher than this. Maybe 1500 or more. What do you guys say?

Blood work can be VERY misleading, even the time of day you take it can be misleading on the results. He could have been 800 at that point and 1700 2 hours later. With low testosterone having 800-1000 on 225mgs of testosterone is not far from normal though.

 

[stevesmi]

Correct me if I’m wrong here.... but running test at 225mg/wk and only getting a total Test of 780...that seems pretty low. Even if you had low T to start with...I’d think it would be higher than this. Maybe 1500 or more. What do you guys say?

it depends on how long you been pinning and your pinning schedule

 

[BodyMonster34]

Correct me if I’m wrong here.... but running test at 225mg/wk and only getting a total Test of 780...that seems pretty low. Even if you had low T to start with...I’d think it would be higher than this. Maybe 1500 or more. What do you guys say?

bro seems a little low but possibl

 

[Mobster]

It's still the high end of normal. I'd wanna see how I was actually doing in the gym too.

 

[JasonPriest]

depends on your pinning schedule.

 

[Tiger Salman Khan]

seems little low.. but depends since when are u doing ..

 

[RoySimpson]

Depends on your pinning schedule.

 

[RoySimpson]

Everything has to be done calculated.

 

[Masonic Bodybuilder]

Typically 3-5x the dose is what you want your total test to show so it is closer to the 3x