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Sustanon 300, test e 400, deca, test cyp and anavar

KamikazeChaos

KamikazeChaos

V.I.P.
EVO Logger
Hi I’m in a bit of pickle, I have got test e 400 and 150 25mg anavar pills for a cycle but now I’ve got a friend with sustanon 300, deca and test c.
Is there any way I can utilise the test e 400 and sustanon together? Like could I do half a mil of test 400 and half a mil sustanon 300 twice a week? And 1 mil of deca? Or is mixing different eaters bad? I’m just worried by doing half mil injections of the test 400 twice i week I will loose a few units of the test e being stuck in the syringe(about 25mg or so) on each half mil injection.
 
theJimJim said:
Pull them both into one syringe and put a small air pocket at the end. No wastage
Click to expand...
Okay so doing half a mil of test e and half a mil of sust in same syringe twice a week of fine? Is 700mg a bit high? I’ve got clomid and nolvadex but no ai…would it be smarter to do half a mil of test e and quarter mil of sust twice a week? Google ai recommended I do half a mil of each twice a week as a frontload for 4 weeks and then taper down to half mil of test e and quarter mil of sust twice a week. So I’d go from 700mg a week for 4 weeks to 550mg a week. Also I’ve ran test e and anavar in the past and did 50mg of anavar for 7 weeks but now I’ve got enough anavar for 75mg for 7 weeks. Is 75 too much?
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Okay so doing half a mil of test e and half a mil of sust in same syringe twice a week of fine? Is 700mg a bit high? I’ve got clomid and nolvadex but no ai…would it be smarter to do half a mil of test e and quarter mil of sust twice a week? Google ai recommended I do half a mil of each twice a week as a frontload for 4 weeks and then taper down to half mil of test e and quarter mil of sust twice a week. So I’d go from 700mg a week for 4 weeks to 550mg a week. Also I’ve ran test e and anavar in the past and did 50mg of anavar for 7 weeks but now I’ve got enough anavar for 75mg for 7 weeks. Is 75 too much?
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need to do some research. I dont pretend to be an expert. I would listen to some more of the Evo podcasts. Read some other cycle logs.
I have no idea of your PED history or your history or goals. For others to answer your questions would be very difficult.
 
theJimJim said:
Sounds like you need to do some research. I dont pretend to be an expert. I would listen to some more of the Evo podcasts. Read some other cycle logs.
I have no idea of your PED history or your history or goals. For others to answer your questions would be very difficult.
Click to expand...
I’m simply asking if mixing test e and sustanon is safe to do so? I have done half a dozen cycles, but everything I Google is contradicting itself about different esters being mixed…but then I can’t help but think what about sustanon in general because that is a mixture of 4 esters…so simply adding testosterone enanthate in and making up 5 esters total surely couldn’t be an issue could it? Especially if it’s just half a mil of sustanon a week to bump my overall testosterones weekly milligram dosage from 400 to 550? Any thoughts…I know I should have just bought 2 vials of test 250, and then I wouldn’t have to worry about my test levels bouncing up and down, my theory is if I were to use half a mil of the test 400 and a quarter a mil of the sustanon 300 making 0.75ml at 275mg overall testosterone into bi weekly injections it should be stable right?
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Hi I’m in a bit of pickle, I have got test e 400 and 150 25mg anavar pills for a cycle but now I’ve got a friend with sustanon 300, deca and test c.
Is there any way I can utilise the test e 400 and sustanon together? Like could I do half a mil of test 400 and half a mil sustanon 300 twice a week? And 1 mil of deca? Or is mixing different eaters bad? I’m just worried by doing half mil injections of the test 400 twice i week I will loose a few units of the test e being stuck in the syringe(about 25mg or so) on each half mil injection.
Click to expand...
Hey bro, okay so first advice is to start a log so that all the bros here can give advice after seeing the entire picture.

700mg of test a week with 300ng of deca is too much with not having an AI on hand. You say youve run 6 cycles before but your asking google ai on your dosing and your not familiar with mixing oils. Ill be honest, it sounds like your first cycle bro.

Few questions, how old are you and what was your previous cycle.

Frontloading gear and then pulling back after 4 weeks doesnt make sense. Starting lower and increasing after 4 week bloods is proper.
KamikazeChaos said:
I’m simply asking if mixing test e and sustanon is safe to do so? I have done half a dozen cycles, but everything I Google is contradicting itself about different esters being mixed…but then I can’t help but think what about sustanon in general because that is a mixture of 4 esters…so simply adding testosterone enanthate in and making up 5 esters total surely couldn’t be an issue could it? Especially if it’s just half a mil of sustanon a week to bump my overall testosterones weekly milligram dosage from 400 to 550? Any thoughts…I know I should have just bought 2 vials of test 250, and then I wouldn’t have to worry about my test levels bouncing up and down, my theory is if I were to use half a mil of the test 400 and a quarter a mil of the sustanon 300 making 0.75ml at 275mg overall testosterone into bi weekly injections it should be stable right?
Click to expand...
All the common carrier oils including EO(solvent) mix very well. Mixing test e and sustanon in the same pin is fine. The esters bind to testostetone and slow the release of test. Sustanon has 4 esters, giving it multiple release rates.

As @theJimJim said, air locking a bubble of air on the plubger for injection will clear the dead space of residual waste. This turns the waste into an overdose though, which is more important in microdosing and pinning ED and EOD, but its still more that the intended dose.

A gram of gear with no AI is askin for trouble.
 
Shakey said:
Hey bro, okay so first advice is to start a log so that all the bros here can give advice after seeing the entire picture.

700mg of test a week with 300ng of deca is too much with not having an AI on hand. You say youve run 6 cycles before but your asking google ai on your dosing and your not familiar with mixing oils. Ill be honest, it sounds like your first cycle bro.

Few questions, how old are you and what was your previous cycle.

Frontloading gear and then pulling back after 4 weeks doesnt make sense. Starting lower and increasing after 4 week bloods is proper.

All the common carrier oils including EO(solvent) mix very well. Mixing test e and sustanon in the same pin is fine. The esters bind to testostetone and slow the release of test. Sustanon has 4 esters, giving it multiple release rates.

As @theJimJim said, air locking a bubble of air on the plubger for injection will clear the dead space of residual waste. This turns the waste into an overdose though, which is more important in microdosing and pinning ED and EOD, but its still more that the intended dose.

A gram of gear with no AI is askin for trouble.
Click to expand...
Nah I’ve ran 5 cycles in the past, I’m 30 years old, 6,1, 101 kilograms a bit out of shape now, first cycle was test e 250 at 500mg for 5 weeks(didn’t know to much back the) with no pct, second cycle was at 21 that was 500mg of test e a week for 10 with hcg on every testosterone injection and clomid and nolvadex using Lamborghini labs, third cycle was test 500mg and tren e(can’t remember the dosage think it was 200mg a ml) for 10 weeks. With clomid nolvadex and hcg as a pct
Third cycle was 250mg test e every 5 days with 50mg of anavar daily for a total of 7 weeks with clomid and nolvadex.
Fourth cycle was test e 500mg a week for 10 weeks, clomid and nolvadex. I know Google ai is a lazy as fuck approach but I was kind of wanting instant answers and it does scour the net pretty well. I personally don’t think I need 700mg of test a week, I’m happy with 500 or just over and I don’t want to do the deca cause that’s pretty bad and can take up to 180 days to recover from, from my understanding. I would never run tren again either. I am happy with test e and testosterone based steroids, and I do really like anavar. So my main question is would taking 75mg of sustanon on my 200mg test e shot twice a week still keep stable bloods? Cause I’ve been reading heaps of mixed opinions on it. But I mean sust is a 4 ester testosterone…but then I’ve also got the option of using test cypionate instead of the sustanon…so all I’m trying to do is up my 400mg test a week to like 500-600 at most, and also if I split the test 400 into bu weekly half mil injections I’m gonna lose at least 10-15 units getting stuck in the 3mil syringe. So I don’t want my weekly dose to be less than 400. I know I should have just got the test 250 and bought 2 vials. So I’m just trying to make up the difference. And in terms of the anavar I know 75mg is a high dose, anything eyond 40 is considered mid-high range and 60 plus is considered extremely high. I do plan on getting aromasin or arimidex along with cabergoline and hcg, but from my past experience with just test and test and anavar clomid and nolvadex worked fine(of course the cycle where I introduced hcg had a better bounce back affect) but I don’t think it’s “needed”
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Nah I’ve ran 5 cycles in the past, I’m 30 years old, 6,1, 101 kilograms a bit out of shape now, first cycle was test e 250 at 500mg for 5 weeks(didn’t know to much back the) with no pct, second cycle was at 21 that was 500mg of test e a week for 10 with hcg on every testosterone injection and clomid and nolvadex using Lamborghini labs, third cycle was test 500mg and tren e(can’t remember the dosage think it was 200mg a ml) for 10 weeks. With clomid nolvadex and hcg as a pct
Third cycle was 250mg test e every 5 days with 50mg of anavar daily for a total of 7 weeks with clomid and nolvadex.
Fourth cycle was test e 500mg a week for 10 weeks, clomid and nolvadex. I know Google ai is a lazy as fuck approach but I was kind of wanting instant answers and it does scour the net pretty well. I personally don’t think I need 700mg of test a week, I’m happy with 500 or just over and I don’t want to do the deca cause that’s pretty bad and can take up to 180 days to recover from, from my understanding. I would never run tren again either. I am happy with test e and testosterone based steroids, and I do really like anavar. So my main question is would taking 75mg of sustanon on my 200mg test e shot twice a week still keep stable bloods? Cause I’ve been reading heaps of mixed opinions on it. But I mean sust is a 4 ester testosterone…but then I’ve also got the option of using test cypionate instead of the sustanon…so all I’m trying to do is up my 400mg test a week to like 500-600 at most, and also if I split the test 400 into bu weekly half mil injections I’m gonna lose at least 10-15 units getting stuck in the 3mil syringe. So I don’t want my weekly dose to be less than 400. I know I should have just got the test 250 and bought 2 vials. So I’m just trying to make up the difference. And in terms of the anavar I know 75mg is a high dose, anything eyond 40 is considered mid-high range and 60 plus is considered extremely high. I do plan on getting aromasin or arimidex along with cabergoline and hcg, but from my past experience with just test and test and anavar clomid and nolvadex worked fine(of course the cycle where I introduced hcg had a better bounce back affect) but I don’t think it’s “needed”
Click to expand...
I say 6 cycles because in between those 4 solid cycles I’ve fucked around with half vials a few times. But no 4 proper cycles and like 2 piss fart couple week injections
 
Shakey said:
Hey bro, okay so first advice is to start a log so that all the bros here can give advice after seeing the entire picture.

700mg of test a week with 300ng of deca is too much with not having an AI on hand. You say youve run 6 cycles before but your asking google ai on your dosing and your not familiar with mixing oils. Ill be honest, it sounds like your first cycle bro.

Few questions, how old are you and what was your previous cycle.

Frontloading gear and then pulling back after 4 weeks doesnt make sense. Starting lower and increasing after 4 week bloods is proper.

All the common carrier oils including EO(solvent) mix very well. Mixing test e and sustanon in the same pin is fine. The esters bind to testostetone and slow the release of test. Sustanon has 4 esters, giving it multiple release rates.

As @theJimJim said, air locking a bubble of air on the plubger for injection will clear the dead space of residual waste. This turns the waste into an overdose though, which is more important in microdosing and pinning ED and EOD, but its still more that the intended dose.

A gram of gear with no AI is askin for trouble.
Click to expand...
Okay another question, does the carrier oil make a difference when mixing different esters? The test e I have is with mct oil, previously most my stuff has been grape seed oil, which m not entirely sure what the carrier oil is on the sustanon 300. Everything I have is from @Raptor_Labs
 
KamikazeChaos said:
I don’t want to do the deca cause that’s pretty bad and can take up to 180 days to recover from, from my understanding.
Click to expand...
Deca with proper pct your looking around 12 weeks or so i think. Deca with zero pct 6+ months probably but i havent looked to deeply into it because why not do pct right?
Sustanon probably 6-10 with pct, maybe 3-4months to baseline with no pct. Again havent really check to deeply.
KamikazeChaos said:
. So my main question is would taking 75mg of sustanon on my 200mg test e shot twice a week still keep stable bloods?
Click to expand...
Test E half life is 4-5 days, but the long esters in sust should give you a smoother curve. Sust was originally designed
KamikazeChaos said:
Okay another question, does the carrier oil make a difference when mixing different esters? The test e I have is with mct oil, previously most my stuff has been grape seed oil, which m not entirely sure what the carrier oil is on the sustanon 300. Everything I have is from @Raptor_Labs
Click to expand...

for injection every 2 weeks i think. Test c would be better if yea got it and want to stick to only twice weekly injectionns.
KamikazeChaos said:
I’m gonna lose at least 10-15 units getting stuck in the 3mil syringe. So I don’t want my weekly dose to be less than 400.
Click to expand...
The residual wasye in a syringe is actually a vial yield loss instead of an underdosing waste loss. Basically the damead soace in syrinfes fills with overdrawn compound. Discard the needle with the waste and it reduces vial yield, clear the dead volume with air locking technique and your over intended dose. Besides 3ml plungers are awfully wasteful in design.

KamikazeChaos said:
And in terms of the anavar I know 75mg is a high dose, anything eyond 40 is considered mid-high range and 60 plus is considered extremely high. I do plan on getting aromasin or arimidex along with cabergoline and hcg, but from my past experience with just test and test and anavar clomid and nolvadex worked fine(of course the cycle where I introduced hcg had a better bounce back affect) but I don’t think it’s “needed”
Click to expand...
40mg is plenty good bro. Lol. As for HCG i dont recommend it for PCT because although it jump starts your boys by mimicing LH, this delays your brain and pituitary from starting to produce LH again as it thinks you still have test because your externally stimulating your testes. If you do run try 4-6 weeks pre-pct. Jump start your boys, then pct.
KamikazeChaos said:
Okay another question, does the carrier oil make a difference when mixing different esters? The test e I have is with mct oil, previously most my stuff has been grape seed oil, which m not entirely sure what the carrier oil is on the sustanon 300. Everything I have is from @Raptor_Labs
Click to expand...
no, carrier oils, well all the most common and modern ones used today mix very well together.
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Okay another question, does the carrier oil make a difference when mixing different esters? The test e I have is with mct oil, previously most my stuff has been grape seed oil, which m not entirely sure what the carrier oil is on the sustanon 300. Everything I have is from @Raptor_Labs
Click to expand...
@KamikazeChaos you should start a log on here, and the more experienced bros can help with dosing after getting the big picture
@HarleyGuy
 
Shakey said:
Deca with proper pct your looking around 12 weeks or so i think. Deca with zero pct 6+ months probably but i havent looked to deeply into it because why not do pct right?
Sustanon probably 6-10 with pct, maybe 3-4months to baseline with no pct. Again havent really check to deeply.

Test E half life is 4-5 days, but the long esters in sust should give you a smoother curve. Sust was originally designed


for injection every 2 weeks i think. Test c would be better if yea got it and want to stick to only twice weekly injectionns.

The residual wasye in a syringe is actually a vial yield loss instead of an underdosing waste loss. Basically the damead soace in syrinfes fills with overdrawn compound. Discard the needle with the waste and it reduces vial yield, clear the dead volume with air locking technique and your over intended dose. Besides 3ml plungers are awfully wasteful in design.


40mg is plenty good bro. Lol. As for HCG i dont recommend it for PCT because although it jump starts your boys by mimicing LH, this delays your brain and pituitary from starting to produce LH again as it thinks you still have test because your externally stimulating your testes. If you do run try 4-6 weeks pre-pct. Jump start your boys, then pct.

no, carrier oils, well all the most common and modern ones used today mix very well together.
Click to expand...
I’ve always taken into account the loss of units in a 3ml so I always draw up like 1 line less than a full mil, so that’s where I was really wanting to add like 25 units of sustanon to make up for loss of oil in the syringe and slightly raise my overall testosterone per injection.
I don’t fully understand what you mean by using the test cyp? Would that still be 25 units with every injection or would that be 1 half mil injection every week? I feel doing the .5ml of test e and .25ml of sustanon twice a week would probably keep more stable bloods right? Or m I wrong here on that one. And also yeah fuck the deca, I always use clomid and nolvadex but have never used a aromotase inhibitor before, I found the best use of hcg was on cycle, can’t remember the dose I used but I would do a subcutaneous injection every time I’d jab my test and that worked the best for not getting any shutdown at all. The time I used hcg as a pct the results definitely weren’t as good…I’d say that’s probably because I was trying to fix a shut down system as opposed to using the hcg during and preventing a total shutdown to begin with. Correct or no?
And yeah I’d like to start a log but I’m pretty useless at navigating stuff online and figuring out the way forums work etc
 
Shakey said:
@KamikazeChaos you should start a log on here, and the more experienced bros can help with dosing after getting the big picture
@HarleyGuy
Click to expand...
So now on the anavar, is 7 weeks the max you’d want to go on anavar? Also my pills are 25mg capsules. Could I possibly run the anavar at 50mg for the entire 10 weeks? Or stick to the standard 6ish maybe 7 week mark? Also would pushing it to 75mg be that bad to do? I’ve used clenbuterol before on cycle and ended up with my whole body cramping and locking up due to an electrolyte lockout so I’m not touching that shit again for weight loss, so I’m hoping 75mg would be okay?
I mean I can always save the other 50 caps and save half the sustanon and the test c for another cycle anyway.
 
Shakey said:
@KamikazeChaos you should start a log on here, and the more experienced bros can help with dosing after getting the big picture
@HarleyGuy
Click to expand...
Also on the anavar…my plan was to start the anavar at week 5 of the test/sust, and runnning the anavar for 7 weeks pushing 2 weeks past my last test injection leaving me with 1 week no anavar and 3 weeks no test/sust before starting my clomid and nolvadex…any thoughts?
 
Hcg- you are shut down still. But your leydig cells are kept semi functioning due to the hcg mimicking LH. If you were to stop all exogenous hormones your hpta will still be crashed. If you continue hcg in this time you will also keep your hpta shut down.
Just do a PCT. If you are using money on gear, food, gym. The least you can do is throw a little more money into trying your hardest to make sure your natural production kicks back in.
Or dont and play Russian roulette with not being able to produce sperm and then needing to be on TRT for the rest of your life because you actually have to.
 
theJimJim said:
Hcg- you are shut down still. But your leydig cells are kept semi functioning due to the hcg mimicking LH. If you were to stop all exogenous hormones your hpta will still be crashed. If you continue hcg in this time you will also keep your hpta shut down.
Just do a PCT. If you are using money on gear, food, gym. The least you can do is throw a little more money into trying your hardest to make sure your natural production kicks back in.
Or dont and play Russian roulette with not being able to produce sperm and then needing to be on TRT for the rest of your life because you actually have to.
Click to expand...
So what are you saying I should add to my cycle?
Let’s say I’m locked in for 400mg of test a week and 150mg sustanon a week, 50-75mg anavar for 7 weeks at the 5 week test/sust mark. Then 3 weeks after last injection and 1 week since last anavar start with 40mg nolvadex/50mg clomid for 2 weeks and then 20mg nolvadex/25mg clomid for another 2 weeks as a pct.what should be added to that?
Something else I should add my last hormone check shows testosterone at 9.9nmol/l
Shbg at 14 nmol/l
Free testosterone at 289 pmol/l
So my markers are already pretty bad
 
KamikazeChaos said:
So what are you saying I should add to my cycle?
Let’s say I’m locked in for 400mg of test a week and 150mg sustanon a week, 50-75mg anavar for 7 weeks at the 5 week test/sust mark. Then 3 weeks after last injection and 1 week since last anavar start with 40mg nolvadex/50mg clomid for 2 weeks and then 20mg nolvadex/25mg clomid for another 2 weeks as a pct.what should be added to that?
Something else I should add my last hormone check shows testosterone at 9.9nmol/l
Shbg at 14 nmol/l
Free testosterone at 289 pmol/l
So my markers are already pretty bad
Click to expand...
Bro this is a perfect candidate to start a log. Both because you're questions require us to know a lot more about you and because it will require ongoing guidance from us after you start. Please post pics of your bloodwork in your log as well. The 'how-to' is below.

theJimJim said:
Pull them both into one syringe and put a small air pocket at the end. No wastage
Click to expand...
@theJimJim we have a community research thread dropping about this, authored by @Shakey and coming soon. I like this point you made about the air pocket.


@KamikazeChaos Please start a log for us and don't do 75mg of Anavar.


HOW and WHY TO LOG?

Why is a Log Journal important?
Accountability, self esteem, and consistency all which lead to RESULTS!

Authoring a log will actually help you way more than just dropping random updates. When you lay it all out week by week you start to see patterns in your body that you won’t catch otherwise.
Other guys here run logs all the time and there’s no privacy issue, nobody is asking for your name or anything personal, it is just training, diet, and how the compound feels.
The feedback you get is also way better because people can follow along and spot things you might miss. It also helps the next guy who is thinking about running the same compound so you are giving back while you learn.
Even if you think you might not stick with it, just starting the log makes it easier to come back and add quick notes. That way you get more out of what you are running instead of keeping it all in your head.

To really guide you we need more info from you:
Please share your diet, training, cardio, sleep, supplements etc log with us in a NEW thread using a full log journal so our guidance is based on facts you provide.
It will take 15-20 minutes max.
We have 100's of years of experience between us, so you need to post a LOG Journal with your stats (weight, height, age, years training, cycle history) diet, training, cardio, supplement, sleep details. If you don't log what you eat or train now, open NOTES on phone and start recording it there and paste here. Very easy.
Please post a Log Journal ASAP for us

There has been almost a quarter million members on here and almost two million posts with over a thousand podcasts so your Log Journal will be taken care of here! Evolutionary.org is the most visited steroid community in the world (fact!).


Here's how:

Please click the anabolic forum
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/forums/anabolic-steroids-and-peds.2/
top RIGHT you will see: +POST THREAD
click that

In Title: write your cycle name, like> My _____ Cycle Log
___ = the name of your log
example: My testosterone cycle Log
In body: write your planned cycle or cycle you doing now, your diet, training, your body weight, supps, etc and we will help you along on your cycle or help you decide when it's time.

For example: What are your supplements?
Are you taking high doses Vitamin C?
what digestive supps you use?
Apple Cider Vinegar with mother?
digestive enzymes?
multis?
probiotics?
psyllium husk?


Here are examples of LOG Journals you can choose to use as your template:
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/first-testosterone-cycle-log.104133/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/my-first-cycle-log.107675/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/sustanon-trenomast-deca-dbol-cycle-journal.105881/


Do you still want to have kids? I recommend becoming as learned as possible on steroids in this order:

  • PCT (after steroid usage how can you come off in a healthy way to get your natural test, hormones and HPTA back up and running)
  • Diet/Supps (we must see you have this dialed in with the proper macros, calories and supplements specific to your goal)
  • Training (we need to make sure you're training is consistent and proper)
  • Steroids (then, if you trust this forum which you should, we will get you squared away for a proper cycle suited and tailored to you)
 
jerseyshoremuscles said:
There is no reason to mix test e and sustanon. It is pointless. Just pick one
What are your goals?

Just grab the deca from your friend
Here is a nice cycle
Test e
Deca
Anavar at the end
Click to expand...
I’d rather increase my test by 150mg a week than use deca, that’s all. And if I get the deca I would have to get ai’s, hcg etc. cause I’ve only got test e 400, I’m more just trying to bump it to 550 or 600mg
 
I probably should be using an ai and hcg regardless on a test and anavar cycle anyway right? So if I were to get then there’s be no reason to not use the deca right? At the moment all I have is teat e 400, sustanon 300, 150 25mg anavar caps, test cypionate, clomid and nolvadex. (The test c and sustanon and 50 anavar were given to me) all Products from Raptor_Labs btw
 
HarleyGuy said:
Bro this is a perfect candidate to start a log. Both because you're questions require us to know a lot more about you and because it will require ongoing guidance from us after you start. Please post pics of your bloodwork in your log as well. The 'how-to' is below.


@theJimJim we have a community research thread dropping about this, authored by @Shakey and coming soon. I like this point you made about the air pocket.


@KamikazeChaos Please start a log for us and don't do 75mg of Anavar.


HOW and WHY TO LOG?

Why is a Log Journal important?
Accountability, self esteem, and consistency all which lead to RESULTS!

Authoring a log will actually help you way more than just dropping random updates. When you lay it all out week by week you start to see patterns in your body that you won’t catch otherwise.
Other guys here run logs all the time and there’s no privacy issue, nobody is asking for your name or anything personal, it is just training, diet, and how the compound feels.
The feedback you get is also way better because people can follow along and spot things you might miss. It also helps the next guy who is thinking about running the same compound so you are giving back while you learn.
Even if you think you might not stick with it, just starting the log makes it easier to come back and add quick notes. That way you get more out of what you are running instead of keeping it all in your head.

To really guide you we need more info from you:
Please share your diet, training, cardio, sleep, supplements etc log with us in a NEW thread using a full log journal so our guidance is based on facts you provide.
It will take 15-20 minutes max.
We have 100's of years of experience between us, so you need to post a LOG Journal with your stats (weight, height, age, years training, cycle history) diet, training, cardio, supplement, sleep details. If you don't log what you eat or train now, open NOTES on phone and start recording it there and paste here. Very easy.
Please post a Log Journal ASAP for us

There has been almost a quarter million members on here and almost two million posts with over a thousand podcasts so your Log Journal will be taken care of here! Evolutionary.org is the most visited steroid community in the world (fact!).


Here's how:

Please click the anabolic forum
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/forums/anabolic-steroids-and-peds.2/
top RIGHT you will see: +POST THREAD
click that

In Title: write your cycle name, like> My _____ Cycle Log
___ = the name of your log
example: My testosterone cycle Log
In body: write your planned cycle or cycle you doing now, your diet, training, your body weight, supps, etc and we will help you along on your cycle or help you decide when it's time.

For example: What are your supplements?
Are you taking high doses Vitamin C?
what digestive supps you use?
Apple Cider Vinegar with mother?
digestive enzymes?
multis?
probiotics?
psyllium husk?


Here are examples of LOG Journals you can choose to use as your template:
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/first-testosterone-cycle-log.104133/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/my-first-cycle-log.107675/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/sustanon-trenomast-deca-dbol-cycle-journal.105881/


Do you still want to have kids? I recommend becoming as learned as possible on steroids in this order:

  • PCT (after steroid usage how can you come off in a healthy way to get your natural test, hormones and HPTA back up and running)
  • Diet/Supps (we must see you have this dialed in with the proper macros, calories and supplements specific to your goal)
  • Training (we need to make sure you're training is consistent and proper)
  • Steroids (then, if you trust this forum which you should, we will get you squared away for a proper cycle suited and tailored to you)
Click to expand...
Yeah I’ll get onto starting a log over the next few days/week. Much appreciate the feedback guys
 
KamikazeChaos said:
I’d rather increase my test by 150mg a week than use deca, that’s all. And if I get the deca I would have to get ai’s, hcg etc. cause I’ve only got test e 400, I’m more just trying to bump it to 550 or 600mg
Click to expand...
Ok sorry, you want to blast 600 mgs of Test with no AI on hand and you think it's the Deca you'll need an AI for AND add hcg to your Test cycle as well at that high a dose?

Facts:
Deca can dramatically increase prolatcin, not estrogen. In this instance you may need cabergoline.
Test at 600mgs can dramatically increase estrogen to which you need an AI at even half that dose
HCG is like injecting estrogen in the name of keeping your nuts full while on cycle when in reality you're gonna shut down anyway

Is the above your line of thinking and correct? This whole thread is a bit all over the place and I don't anticipate you starting a log so I'm concerned for you.

KamikazeChaos said:
I’ve got a friend with sustanon 300, deca and test c
Click to expand...
"A friend"? Can you post a pic of the vials and let us see what this stuff is?
 
HarleyGuy said:
Ok sorry, you want to blast 600 mgs of Test with no AI on hand and you think it's the Deca you'll need an AI for AND add hcg to your Test cycle as well at that high a dose?

Facts:
Deca can dramatically increase prolatcin, not estrogen. In this instance you may need cabergoline.
Test at 600mgs can dramatically increase estrogen to which you need an AI at even half that dose
HCG is like injecting estrogen in the name of keeping your nuts full while on cycle when in reality you're gonna shut down anyway

Is the above your line of thinking and correct? This whole thread is a bit all over the place and I don't anticipate you starting a log so I'm concerned for you.


"A friend"? Can you post a pic of the vials and let us see what this stuff is?
Click to expand...
I’ve never really had any issues with test, clomid and nolvadex at 500mg a week, no gyno, hardly any acne(if any) no nipple sensitivity. I havnt picked up the sustanon, deca or cypionate yet as I’ll be getting it off him next week but it’s all from raptor_labs except the test c. I can show a pic of the test 400 if you like?
 
I have put the 150 anavar caps into an old l-theanine tub with a moisture absorber as when I was given the extra 50 they wouldn’t all fit in the ziplock sleeve that my original 100 came in
 

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HarleyGuy said:
Ok sorry, you want to blast 600 mgs of Test with no AI on hand and you think it's the Deca you'll need an AI for AND add hcg to your Test cycle as well at that high a dose?

Facts:
Deca can dramatically increase prolatcin, not estrogen. In this instance you may need cabergoline.
Test at 600mgs can dramatically increase estrogen to which you need an AI at even half that dose
HCG is like injecting estrogen in the name of keeping your nuts full while on cycle when in reality you're gonna shut down anyway

Is the above your line of thinking and correct? This whole thread is a bit all over the place and I don't anticipate you starting a log so I'm concerned for you.


"A friend"? Can you post a pic of the vials and let us see what this stuff is?
Click to expand...
A lot of the info I’ve been given came from bodybuilding.com about 7-8 years ago, I was told by using hcg during cycle it keeps your gonads producing testosterone during the cycle which will stop your testes from shutting down, and using clomid and nolvadex as a standard pct. I’ve never used an ai before as I though(and what I was told) was once you’ve finished your cycle and used hcg to prevent shutdown the pct will balance out your estrogen until your testosterone levels back out from the increase of exogenous test and that would help the estrogen to slowly drop back to normal levels to adjust to your now lower test. Is this all wrong?
 
HarleyGuy said:
Ok sorry, you want to blast 600 mgs of Test with no AI on hand and you think it's the Deca you'll need an AI for AND add hcg to your Test cycle as well at that high a dose?

Facts:
Deca can dramatically increase prolatcin, not estrogen. In this instance you may need cabergoline.
Test at 600mgs can dramatically increase estrogen to which you need an AI at even half that dose
HCG is like injecting estrogen in the name of keeping your nuts full while on cycle when in reality you're gonna shut down anyway

Is the above your line of thinking and correct? This whole thread is a bit all over the place and I don't anticipate you starting a log so I'm concerned for you.


"A friend"? Can you post a pic of the vials and let us see what this stuff is?
Click to expand...
Also no I don’t really plan on using the deca, that’s why I’m questioning if adding in an ai and hcg would be all that’s needed, I’ve always bounced back somewhat well with just clomid and nolvadex on a test only cycle even on the test and anavar cycle.
I know older guys who have blasted test and sustanon for 20+ years who don’t do pct(I know that’s stupid) but they seem to be fine without it. They simply blast and cruise continuously without any ai’s, cabergoline, hcg or pct at all
 
jerseyshoremuscles said:
You are over thinking everything.

Do a simple Testosterone and anavar cycle. Forget about the deca.

Focus more on eating and training.
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking, and it’s making me look like a fool asking these questions. I’ve never needed an ai or cabergoline on a standard test or test and anavar cycle in the past.
Primarily my original question was just if it’s safe mixing sust with test e.
For test and anavar clomid and nolvadex is fine right?(again another stupid question). Of course an ai would be beneficial but I’ve never had estrogenic issues. I hopped on here for some black and white answers and in return I’m getting more confusing answers. Appreciate the advice, I’ll just stick with test and anavar with nolvadex and clomid.
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Yeah I’ll get onto starting a log over the next few days/week. Much appreciate the feedback guys
Click to expand...
lets get a log going first we want to give you advice based on your log and more details :D @KamikazeChaos
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...-deca-test-cyp-and-anavar.109762/post-2006511
HarleyGuy said:
Bro this is a perfect candidate to start a log. Both because you're questions require us to know a lot more about you and because it will require ongoing guidance from us after you start. Please post pics of your bloodwork in your log as well. The 'how-to' is below.


@theJimJim we have a community research thread dropping about this, authored by @Shakey and coming soon. I like this point you made about the air pocket.


@KamikazeChaos Please start a log for us and don't do 75mg of Anavar.


HOW and WHY TO LOG?

Why is a Log Journal important?
Accountability, self esteem, and consistency all which lead to RESULTS!

Authoring a log will actually help you way more than just dropping random updates. When you lay it all out week by week you start to see patterns in your body that you won’t catch otherwise.
Other guys here run logs all the time and there’s no privacy issue, nobody is asking for your name or anything personal, it is just training, diet, and how the compound feels.
The feedback you get is also way better because people can follow along and spot things you might miss. It also helps the next guy who is thinking about running the same compound so you are giving back while you learn.
Even if you think you might not stick with it, just starting the log makes it easier to come back and add quick notes. That way you get more out of what you are running instead of keeping it all in your head.

To really guide you we need more info from you:
Please share your diet, training, cardio, sleep, supplements etc log with us in a NEW thread using a full log journal so our guidance is based on facts you provide.
It will take 15-20 minutes max.
We have 100's of years of experience between us, so you need to post a LOG Journal with your stats (weight, height, age, years training, cycle history) diet, training, cardio, supplement, sleep details. If you don't log what you eat or train now, open NOTES on phone and start recording it there and paste here. Very easy.
Please post a Log Journal ASAP for us

There has been almost a quarter million members on here and almost two million posts with over a thousand podcasts so your Log Journal will be taken care of here! Evolutionary.org is the most visited steroid community in the world (fact!).


Here's how:

Please click the anabolic forum
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/forums/anabolic-steroids-and-peds.2/
top RIGHT you will see: +POST THREAD
click that

In Title: write your cycle name, like> My _____ Cycle Log
___ = the name of your log
example: My testosterone cycle Log
In body: write your planned cycle or cycle you doing now, your diet, training, your body weight, supps, etc and we will help you along on your cycle or help you decide when it's time.

For example: What are your supplements?
Are you taking high doses Vitamin C?
what digestive supps you use?
Apple Cider Vinegar with mother?
digestive enzymes?
multis?
probiotics?
psyllium husk?


Here are examples of LOG Journals you can choose to use as your template:
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/first-testosterone-cycle-log.104133/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/my-first-cycle-log.107675/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/sustanon-trenomast-deca-dbol-cycle-journal.105881/


Do you still want to have kids? I recommend becoming as learned as possible on steroids in this order:

  • PCT (after steroid usage how can you come off in a healthy way to get your natural test, hormones and HPTA back up and running)
  • Diet/Supps (we must see you have this dialed in with the proper macros, calories and supplements specific to your goal)
  • Training (we need to make sure you're training is consistent and proper)
  • Steroids (then, if you trust this forum which you should, we will get you squared away for a proper cycle suited and tailored to you)
Click to expand...

KamikazeChaos said:
I probably should be using an ai and hcg regardless on a test and anavar cycle anyway right? So if I were to get then there’s be no reason to not use the deca right? At the moment all I have is teat e 400, sustanon 300, 150 25mg anavar caps, test cypionate, clomid and nolvadex. (The test c and sustanon and 50 anavar were given to me) all Products from Raptor_Labs btw
Click to expand...
 
KamikazeChaos said:
I have put the 150 anavar caps into an old l-theanine tub with a moisture absorber as when I was given the extra 50 they wouldn’t all fit in the ziplock sleeve that my original 100 came in
Click to expand...
This is what my mate has waiting for me, it’s the sust 300 and deca
 

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KamikazeChaos said:
Yeah I’m keen to give it a go. Just want to be dialed in with training and diet for a good 8 or so weeks before starting. Been a bit lazy last few months
Click to expand...
you should start a log, have you seen other logs and know how to? :D @KamikazeChaos
 
LevButlerov said:
you should start a log, have you seen other logs and know how to? :D @KamikazeChaos
Click to expand...
I’ve got a rough idea, where I’m currently staying I don’t have access to a gym, all I have is 80kg and an Olympic barbell, 2 dumbbells with 60kg weights in total and a chin up bar. I know I can still do a lot of exercises but I figured it’s best to wait until I have access to a full set of equipment. So I’m just kind of half assing things at the moment by doing free weights and calisthenics. Still about 8-12 weeks away at least before I’m even going to start jabbing test
 
KamikazeChaos said:
I’ve got a rough idea, where I’m currently staying I don’t have access to a gym, all I have is 80kg and an Olympic barbell, 2 dumbbells with 60kg weights in total and a chin up bar. I know I can still do a lot of exercises but I figured it’s best to wait until I have access to a full set of equipment. So I’m just kind of half assing things at the moment by doing free weights and calisthenics. Still about 8-12 weeks away at least before I’m even going to start jabbing test
Click to expand...
you have access to gym those barbells and dumbells with push ups all you need :D and straight up exercises with pull ups @KamikazeChaos you've been training with them right?
 
LevButlerov said:
you have access to gym those barbells and dumbells with push ups all you need :D and straight up exercises with pull ups @KamikazeChaos you've been training with them right?
Click to expand...
Yeah still doing dead lifts, standing overhead press, hammer curls, bicep curls, standing tricep press, push ups, leg raises Bent rows and chin-ups/pull ups. I like to hit 3 exercises per muscle group with 3 sets of 8-12 rep range which I can’t really do. So I’m making do with what I have. Just it feels a bit off, I’m kind of doing a full body routine with those exercises. Where as if I were in the gym I’d be doing a 3 day split. Chest tris and delts, back and bis, legs and core then a day off and repeat
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Yeah still doing dead lifts, standing overhead press, hammer curls, bicep curls, standing tricep press, push ups, leg raises Bent rows and chin-ups/pull ups. I like to hit 3 exercises per muscle group with 3 sets of 8-12 rep range which I can’t really do. So I’m making do with what I have. Just it feels a bit off, I’m kind of doing a full body routine with those exercises. Where as if I were in the gym I’d be doing a 3 day split. Chest tris and delts, back and bis, legs and core then a day off and repeat
Click to expand...
you do have a basic log already tbh especially training no matter what you're doing here full body is a training log :D @KamikazeChaos can you start one up? I'd like to work with you on it so does the EVO family!
 
Okay so I’ve been doing some research and I’m kind of stuck…I’ve just watched a video by a guy on YouTube called anabolicbodybuilding/bigPaul. And he’s saying there’s no point coming off once you start. Basically saying you’re going to crash your hormones and trying to get them stable for however many months with ancillaries(a.I.’s hcg, cabergoline, clomid and nolvadex) just to jump back on a cycle 6-12 months later down the track and have to repeat the whole process of trying to get all your hormone markers back in place.
I’m only 30 and my free test is 289nanomils, shbg is like 13nanomils, total test is like 9.
So I’ve got test e 400mg sustanon, deca, anavar and recently got given 21x10mg Dianabol tablets. What’s everybodies opinion on how to run this and use this stuff? When I first started aas my original goal was to do like 2-3 cycles of test and maybe try something like anavar. But since then and over the last 10 years I’ve ran test(with clomid and nolvadex, test and hcg during cycle with nolvadex and clomid as pct, test e and tren e with clomid and nolvadex as pct, a pure anadrol cycle for 5 weeks with no pct, and then a test e and anavar cycle for 7 weeks with clomid and nolvadex and a few half assed half vials of test here and there. It’s confusing the shit out of me, there’s so many different opinions and different literature with case studies showing different result from different time periods. Like the old school mindset was to cycle on and cycle off the same amount of Time you were on before starting again. Now theirs so much more info about using A.I.’s and cabergoline and hcg during the cycle and then doing even a pct with nolvadex clomid/enclomophine. So I’m a bit stumped with where I should start.
With a basic 400mg a wesek of test e, 10mg of Dianabol for 3 weeks, then start 50mg of anavar at week 5 of the test e and running it 2 weeks past the test e and starting a pct with clomid and nolvadex would I need an a.i? Cabergoline? And hcg? Or should I just jump into blasting and cruising. As I said I never originally planned to have done the amount of cycles I already have. I personally Would like to just do 2 more cycles and leave it at that. But with how low my libido is and the e.d. I’m experiencing I’m wondering wether cruising would help with that. And if I do just blast and cruise is it crucial to still use A.I.’s, hcg and caber?
 
Also I’m not sure to start a new thread/log entirely or just work from this one? Any advice on how to navigate this site/forum would be much appreciated. I’m doing keto to some degree, usually my diet consists of Greek yoghurt with watermelon and protein shake with creatine, 4 fish oils, multivitamin, glucosamine, liv 52 ds(liver support), magnesium glycinate, and vitamin d with k2 for breakfast,
Lunch is 2 servings of tuna with salad tomato, cucumber, beetroot, half a raw onion, 1 clove of garlic and 1 whole lemons worth of juice.
Then dinner is split between 2 meals.
So at like 6pm I’ll have 1 chicken breast with frozen veggies(carrot, peas, corn, broccoli and cauliflower)
Then second dinner is another chicken breast with salad, cucumber, tomato, onion, garlic beetroot and lemon juice.
I often mix the dinners up with 500g of beef mince.(like one day chicken the. Next day beef mince)
And that would look like 250g of beef mince with the salad I mentioned.
And second dinner would be 250mg of beef mince with the frozen vegetable I mention.
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Okay so I’ve been doing some research and I’m kind of stuck…I’ve just watched a video by a guy on YouTube called anabolicbodybuilding/bigPaul. And he’s saying there’s no point coming off once you start. Basically saying you’re going to crash your hormones and trying to get them stable for however many months with ancillaries(a.I.’s hcg, cabergoline, clomid and nolvadex) just to jump back on a cycle 6-12 months later down the track and have to repeat the whole process of trying to get all your hormone markers back in place.
I’m only 30 and my free test is 289nanomils, shbg is like 13nanomils, total test is like 9.
So I’ve got test e 400mg sustanon, deca, anavar and recently got given 21x10mg Dianabol tablets. What’s everybodies opinion on how to run this and use this stuff? When I first started aas my original goal was to do like 2-3 cycles of test and maybe try something like anavar. But since then and over the last 10 years I’ve ran test(with clomid and nolvadex, test and hcg during cycle with nolvadex and clomid as pct, test e and tren e with clomid and nolvadex as pct, a pure anadrol cycle for 5 weeks with no pct, and then a test e and anavar cycle for 7 weeks with clomid and nolvadex and a few half assed half vials of test here and there. It’s confusing the shit out of me, there’s so many different opinions and different literature with case studies showing different result from different time periods. Like the old school mindset was to cycle on and cycle off the same amount of Time you were on before starting again. Now theirs so much more info about using A.I.’s and cabergoline and hcg during the cycle and then doing even a pct with nolvadex clomid/enclomophine. So I’m a bit stumped with where I should start.
With a basic 400mg a wesek of test e, 10mg of Dianabol for 3 weeks, then start 50mg of anavar at week 5 of the test e and running it 2 weeks past the test e and starting a pct with clomid and nolvadex would I need an a.i? Cabergoline? And hcg? Or should I just jump into blasting and cruising. As I said I never originally planned to have done the amount of cycles I already have. I personally Would like to just do 2 more cycles and leave it at that. But with how low my libido is and the e.d. I’m experiencing I’m wondering wether cruising would help with that. And if I do just blast and cruise is it crucial to still use A.I.’s, hcg and caber?
Click to expand...

KamikazeChaos said:
Hey man any input on my current post?
Click to expand...

KamikazeChaos said:
Also I’m not sure to start a new thread/log entirely or just work from this one? Any advice on how to navigate this site/forum would be much appreciated. I’m doing keto to some degree, usually my diet consists of Greek yoghurt with watermelon and protein shake with creatine, 4 fish oils, multivitamin, glucosamine, liv 52 ds(liver support), magnesium glycinate, and vitamin d with k2 for breakfast,
Lunch is 2 servings of tuna with salad tomato, cucumber, beetroot, half a raw onion, 1 clove of garlic and 1 whole lemons worth of juice.
Then dinner is split between 2 meals.
So at like 6pm I’ll have 1 chicken breast with frozen veggies(carrot, peas, corn, broccoli and cauliflower)
Then second dinner is another chicken breast with salad, cucumber, tomato, onion, garlic beetroot and lemon juice.
I often mix the dinners up with 500g of beef mince.(like one day chicken the. Next day beef mince)
And that would look like 250g of beef mince with the salad I mentioned.
And second dinner would be 250mg of beef mince with the frozen vegetable I mention.
Click to expand...
interesting share @KamikazeChaos but I wouldn't take "youtube guys" as a barameter for anything they mainly do it to get clicks not info out.
If you want real help, please start a new thread and start a proper log because this post is all over the place and we can’t guide you without day to day info, especially with low libido and ED already in the mix.
Your labs sound low and you’ve run enough random cycles that you need structure, bloodwork, and a clear plan, not more guessing from YouTube.
Get a log up now with your full labs, weekly doses, pin schedule, daily calories and macros, bodyweight trend, sleep, training, and symptoms, then the EVO family can tell you if you should PCT, cruise, or simplify to a stable TRT plan first. 15min to start :D

HOW-TO LOG?

Why is a Log Journal important?
  • Doing a log will actually help you way more than just dropping random updates. When you lay it all out week by week you start to see patterns in your body that you won’t catch otherwise.
  • Other guys here run logs all the time and there’s no privacy issue, nobody is asking for your name or anything personal, it is just training, diet, and how the compound feels.
  • The feedback you get is also way better because people can follow along and spot things you might miss. It also helps the next guy who is thinking about running the same compound so you are giving back while you learn.
  • Even if you think you might not stick with it, just starting the log makes it easier to come back and add quick notes. That way you get more out of what you are running instead of keeping it all in your head.

To really guide you we need more info from you:
  • Please share your diet, training, cardio, sleep, supplements etc log with us in a NEW thread, full log journal so our guidance is based on facts you provide.
  • It will take 15-20 minutes max.
  • We have 100s of years of experience between us, so you need to post a LOG Journal with your stats (weight,height,age, years training, cycle history) diet, training, cardio, supplement, sleep details. If you don't log what you eat or train now, open NOTES on phone and start recording it there and paste here. Very easy.
  • Please post a Log Journal asap for us

Please click the anabolic forum
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/forums/anabolic-steroids-and-peds.2/
top RIGHT, you see: +POST THREAD
click that

in Title: write your cycle name, like> My _____ Cycle Log
___ = the name of your log
example: My Training Nutrition cycle Log
in body: write your planned cycle or cycle you doing now, your diet, training and we will help you along on your cycle

here are examples of LOG Journals
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/first-testosterone-cycle-log.104133/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/sustanon-trenomast-deca-dbol-cycle-journal.105881/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/s-gentz-2025-26-growth-phase-log-with-psl.106514/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...var-bpc157-beligas-pharmaqo-cycle-log.104843/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...g-log-sponsored-by-purity-source-labs.103669/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...erone-cycle-and-beginner-training-log.106310/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/average-trt-back-to-savage-cycle-journal.106252
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...-testosterone-masteron-primobolan-deca.105348
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...odybuilding-log-masters-55-competitor.102611/
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...ron-npp-tren-anadrol-log-to-stage-2025.102590

P.S. are you listening to our podcast? if not, you should; this podcast is about steroids, sarms, peptides, and bodybuilding:
https://www.evolutionary.org/podcasts/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-bodybuilding-radio/id1798623410
https://open.spotify.com/show/53q1RFTgG4h6TQHsJ4xY6Z

P.P.S. download our eBooks and learn more:
https://irongorillas.com
 
KamikazeChaos said:
Hi I’m in a bit of pickle, I have got test e 400 and 150 25mg anavar pills for a cycle but now I’ve got a friend with sustanon 300, deca and test c.
Is there any way I can utilise the test e 400 and sustanon together? Like could I do half a mil of test 400 and half a mil sustanon 300 twice a week? And 1 mil of deca? Or is mixing different eaters bad? I’m just worried by doing half mil injections of the test 400 twice i week I will loose a few units of the test e being stuck in the syringe(about 25mg or so) on each half mil injection.
Click to expand...
i would either do sus to the t400

It's easier to track. It's not bad to to it just over complicates it.

You could run

Test
Decca
Anavar first 6 weeks

Nice simple cycle
 
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