PCT or TRT - Looking for advice

[Reeserobs]

Alright fellas. I've searched and found a lot of similar questions and answers across this forum and many others, but I understand there are a lot of variables so I figure I'll ask and see if I can get some insight from y'all on this. I apologize for the long post ahead of time, you always want "stats" so here's my life story.

I have been overweight for all of my life, starting pre-puberty. When I finished high school I was severely overweight and needed to make a change.. I have had bad gyno (not just nipples, breast tissue development) forever. After high school I started dieting and lifting seriously, I began learning and devoted my life at that point improving myself. However, I've never been able to get relatively lean. I dieted HARD for the first year, counting macros and tapering down to even 1500 calories at one point. I had little muscle mass at that time, but got to probably 14-15% by starving myself and got burnt out after a year. I stayed around the 15% bf mark without tracking macros too closely for a couple years and gained mass slowly but made progress every year. I did a lot of research on AAS and considered it, but hadn't pulled the trigger.

Now I'm 25 and have been lifting seriously for 8 years. I had developed a great strength and muscle base over my time training but had gained some fat. I was well researched and knew how to diet and train properly, but had given up on trying to be lean and focused on training hard to grow. This year I got married, and beforehand I made another serious attempt to cut. I took about 4 months and counted every macro, starting at about 2200kcal and tapering down to as low as 1700 for more than a month. I was intermittent fasting, eating one large meal post-workout and another smaller meal later in the evening. I dropped from 235 to about 230... bodyfat only slightly decreased. At this point I considered having my bloodwork done because I figured something must be hormonally wrong with me.

Results come back, thyroid normal (this is what I was suspecting to be off) but testosterone was 304ng/dl. Now, I'm 25 and understood that while this was at the low end of the normal range per my doctor... that is much lower than it should be for someone my age who lifts heavy weights and eats a ton of protein. I asked the doctor for a remedy, not thinking at the time of TRT but I had read of people taking a SERM to "kickstart" their natural test. Her response was "I reviewed with our endo and he said you should lose some weight then we will retest."

This was frustrating for me. I had kicked around the idea of running a test cycle even before I knew I was low, but now I really wanted to do it. I figured there was one of three outcomes:

1. I'll use test/aas to get in the best shape of my life, then perhaps with less bodyfat I'll naturally have high testostone? I considered this but figured it wouldn't be very likely.

2. I'll do a cycle, PCT, and basically lose everything as my test goes back to the 300 level. At this point just decide it's time to do TRT and find a clinic.

3. I'll run the test cycle, and instead of PCT just transition to a TRT dose and enjoy my best life for the forseeable future going between TRT and a "blast" cycle dose. Jabbing forever.

Now I've started my first cycle and am in week 8. I'm doing a 12 week cycle of Test-E 500mg/wk. About 4 weeks in I ran bloodwork again and my test was >1600 (the upper limit of the test) but Estradiol was high, just over 70 so I increased my dose of Aromasin and have been a lot dryer and leaner since. It's worth pointing out, my wife is on board with any decision I make. She is an RN and does my injections for me, as well as takes good care of my health.

I've made great progress on this first cycle so far. My diet has been strict, eating 1800cal with only about 100g carbs per day and I've lost about 3 inches on my waist in that time. My strength has also increased and I've gotten much fuller and rounder. For example, my max bench natty was about 290. Currently, I'm repping 285 for 4-5 as a top set after previous sets of higher reps.

So... I'm faced with this decision. I know that even if I PCT, I want to continue to do more cycles in the future. Given my natural test levels being so low, would it be silly for me to PCT and cycle each time? Or is that a more responsible choice? Should I accept TRT is inevitable for my situation and instead of spinning my wheels just start now? Or, what is the likelihood that by using AAS to get in great shape (I'm currently in the best shape of my life across all accounts: strength, muscularity, and leanness) I could actually increase my natural test off cycle to where I could cycle and PCT like normal?

I'm sure I'll get responses saying that my diet must have been off, I should have lost more weight, but I've experienced it firsthand. I was not getting leaner with my natural test levels. Without really getting miserable anyways.. eating 1700/day is about as low as I'm comfortable doing for any period of time.

Sorry for the long thread. Tl;dr: Before starting AAS my test was ~304ng/dl and I was fat and unhappy. Currently on cycle, should I bother PCT or just accept TRT and cruise at a TRT dose until my next cycle?

 

[E32038]

Alright fellas. I've searched and found a lot of similar questions and answers across this forum and many others, but I understand there are a lot of variables so I figure I'll ask and see if I can get some insight from y'all on this. I apologize for the long post ahead of time, you always want "stats" so here's my life story.

I have been overweight for all of my life, starting pre-puberty. When I finished high school I was severely overweight and needed to make a change.. I have had bad gyno (not just nipples, breast tissue development) forever. After high school I started dieting and lifting seriously, I began learning and devoted my life at that point improving myself. However, I've never been able to get relatively lean. I dieted HARD for the first year, counting macros and tapering down to even 1500 calories at one point. I had little muscle mass at that time, but got to probably 14-15% by starving myself and got burnt out after a year. I stayed around the 15% bf mark without tracking macros too closely for a couple years and gained mass slowly but made progress every year. I did a lot of research on AAS and considered it, but hadn't pulled the trigger.

Now I'm 25 and have been lifting seriously for 8 years. I had developed a great strength and muscle base over my time training but had gained some fat. I was well researched and knew how to diet and train properly, but had given up on trying to be lean and focused on training hard to grow. This year I got married, and beforehand I made another serious attempt to cut. I took about 4 months and counted every macro, starting at about 2200kcal and tapering down to as low as 1700 for more than a month. I was intermittent fasting, eating one large meal post-workout and another smaller meal later in the evening. I dropped from 235 to about 230... bodyfat only slightly decreased. At this point I considered having my bloodwork done because I figured something must be hormonally wrong with me.

Results come back, thyroid normal (this is what I was suspecting to be off) but testosterone was 304ng/dl. Now, I'm 25 and understood that while this was at the low end of the normal range per my doctor... that is much lower than it should be for someone my age who lifts heavy weights and eats a ton of protein. I asked the doctor for a remedy, not thinking at the time of TRT but I had read of people taking a SERM to "kickstart" their natural test. Her response was "I reviewed with our endo and he said you should lose some weight then we will retest."

This was frustrating for me. I had kicked around the idea of running a test cycle even before I knew I was low, but now I really wanted to do it. I figured there was one of three outcomes:

1. I'll use test/aas to get in the best shape of my life, then perhaps with less bodyfat I'll naturally have high testostone? I considered this but figured it wouldn't be very likely.

2. I'll do a cycle, PCT, and basically lose everything as my test goes back to the 300 level. At this point just decide it's time to do TRT and find a clinic.

3. I'll run the test cycle, and instead of PCT just transition to a TRT dose and enjoy my best life for the forseeable future going between TRT and a "blast" cycle dose. Jabbing forever.

Now I've started my first cycle and am in week 8. I'm doing a 12 week cycle of Test-E 500mg/wk. About 4 weeks in I ran bloodwork again and my test was >1600 (the upper limit of the test) but Estradiol was high, just over 70 so I increased my dose of Aromasin and have been a lot dryer and leaner since. It's worth pointing out, my wife is on board with any decision I make. She is an RN and does my injections for me, as well as takes good care of my health.

I've made great progress on this first cycle so far. My diet has been strict, eating 1800cal with only about 100g carbs per day and I've lost about 3 inches on my waist in that time. My strength has also increased and I've gotten much fuller and rounder. For example, my max bench natty was about 290. Currently, I'm repping 285 for 4-5 as a top set after previous sets of higher reps.

So... I'm faced with this decision. I know that even if I PCT, I want to continue to do more cycles in the future. Given my natural test levels being so low, would it be silly for me to PCT and cycle each time? Or is that a more responsible choice? Should I accept TRT is inevitable for my situation and instead of spinning my wheels just start now? Or, what is the likelihood that by using AAS to get in great shape (I'm currently in the best shape of my life across all accounts: strength, muscularity, and leanness) I could actually increase my natural test off cycle to where I could cycle and PCT like normal?

I'm sure I'll get responses saying that my diet must have been off, I should have lost more weight, but I've experienced it firsthand. I was not getting leaner with my natural test levels. Without really getting miserable anyways.. eating 1700/day is about as low as I'm comfortable doing for any period of time.

Sorry for the long thread. Tl;dr: Before starting AAS my test was ~304ng/dl and I was fat and unhappy. Currently on cycle, should I bother PCT or just accept TRT and cruise at a TRT dose until my next cycle?

Bro, first welcome to the forum. You are an inspiration for sure. Your dedication to your health is commendable. I salute you sir.

Now to your question/comments: You are 25. I would not jump on TRT at your age. It's for life. I waited until I was i my 40's to do it. Granted, I understand your T is low for a 25 year old, but as you said it may have been attributed to being overweight and unhealthy. Before you decide on TRT, I would wait to get off cycle. Do a proper PCT. Stay in shape and continue your diet and training and see where you are sitting a few months after that. There are situations where younger guys need to get on TRT, I get that. Not everyone is the same, obviously. It's also good you have a strong support group at home. If you do decide to get on TRT, keep it just enough....I would not go over 150/wk. that should put you exactly where you need to be. But just make sure you get blood work and be honest with your doctors. If you find an an asshole doctor then get another doctor.

 

[Reeserobs]

Thank you for that.. yes I do understand it is a lifelong decision and I'm not taking it lightly. However, even after taking my health seriously now for nearly 8 years, I'm unhappy and not confident in my physique. Now I wasnt super strict for all of those 8 years, but I have had a relatively consistent clean diet about 70-80% of the time with random cheat meals and exceptions.. My diet on this cycle has been more calculated, sure, but I'm feeling the best mentally and physically I have ever.

I'm at a point where, I don't want to be unhappy anymore. I want to spend the rest of my life looking and feeling good, and I know that I can't do that with low t levels. SO either I attempt to raise them by getting super fit and see where I'm at naturally (is that possible? idk) or I accept that my body needs testosterone from outside.

 

[E32038]

Thank you for that.. yes I do understand it is a lifelong decision and I'm not taking it lightly. However, even after taking my health seriously now for nearly 8 years, I'm unhappy and not confident in my physique. Now I wasnt super strict for all of those 8 years, but I have had a relatively consistent clean diet about 70-80% of the time with random cheat meals and exceptions.. My diet on this cycle has been more calculated, sure, but I'm feeling the best mentally and physically I have ever.

I'm at a point where, I don't want to be unhappy anymore. I want to spend the rest of my life looking and feeling good, and I know that I can't do that with low t levels. SO either I attempt to raise them by getting super fit and see where I'm at naturally (is that possible? idk) or I accept that my body needs testosterone from outside.

Brother - don’t beat yourself up about a cheat meal or two. Everyone has done it. It happens, we are human and fallible. Correct yourself and get back on track. As you know and are doing. Has the doctor suggested you go to TRT? What type of training do you do? What is your idea of a clean meal?

I only ask this because I had someone tell me once that Cheerios were good for you. I am not at all comparing you to them as I believe you have your shit together. But everyone has different ideas of clean eating. (And we shouldn’t have different ideas, cause clean is clean). Unprocessed, whole foods, preferably organic, grass fed, yada yada yada.

 

[awm1981]

Im gonna be honest man I get you are saying you are highly focused on your dieting and training and 304 is low for your age but you really have to take a closer look to make sure you have done everything you can naturally before turning to TRT.

I wouldnt have suggested a 500mg/week cycle but since you are on it I would 100% do a PCT and then try running N2Generate as a natural test booster and see how that goes.

If it plummets to 300 or less again I would talk to your doctor and get TRT prescribed but again 304 isnt at the low end of the range. Ive seen guys with sub 100 levels ad they 100% need TRT.

You do have to understand though that test alone is not a fat burner. Its all in your training and diet. You cant say im 14%-15% BF and thats as low as I will ever get and Test will get me leaner as thats not how it works.

If you want to work on burning fat id turn to Cardarine (GW-501516) or Stenobolic (SR9009). Those will help with endurance.

Get the idea of Blast and Cruise out of your head. There are a lot of side effects including heart health associated with AAS so yes you may look the best you ever have but could limit your lifespan.

Just being real man. It sucks I get it I was overweight for a long time when I was younger and thought I was doing everything right diet/training wise until i sat down with a real trainer and nutritionist and found out I was sabotaging myself. You cant get to 10% BF or less eating clean 70-80% of the time. Its just not possible it needs to be 95% of the time.

Steve (Stevesmi) and Trevor (Muskate) - both mods here and offer training plans and nutritional advice I would talk to them first and get some advice.

Good luck man just want to see you make the best decision long term not the best decision short term.

 

[Reeserobs]

Brother - don’t beat yourself up about a cheat meal or two. Everyone has done it. It happens, we are human and fallible. Correct yourself and get back on track. As you know and are doing. Has the doctor suggested you go to TRT? What type of training do you do? What is your idea of a clean meal?

I only ask this because I had someone tell me once that Cheerios were good for you. I am not at all comparing you to them as I believe you have your shit together. But everyone has different ideas of clean eating. (And we shouldn’t have different ideas, cause clean is clean). Unprocessed, whole foods, preferably organic, grass fed, yada yada yada.

I eat and train like a bodybuilder. Training consists of a 4 day bodypart split, periodization when I stall for long enough. Typically follow a hypertrophy focused rep/set scheme but occasionally switch it up to 5x5 or some variation thereof to make small strength gains before coming back. My diet consists mostly of meat, eggs, veggies, fruits, and either rice or potatoes. Sometimes bread, which I know isn't perfect.

I intermittent fast, typically train in the late morning for 1.5-2hrs and follow that with my largest meal of the day around 1pm. That meal is usually 1.5lbs of chicken breast with 200g of rice, couple eggs and veggies in a stir fry and a Whey shake. Then I may snack on some small fruits or almonds throughout the day, have my final meal closer to 7-8 which is smaller so I change it up often. Eggwhites and sausage, maybe a huge bowl of greek yogurt with fruit, maybe some leftover chicken and rice, whatever. That has been typical for a few years now. Been counting macros since before my wedding now (basically all of 2018) and my goal has been ~1800-1850 on cycle. Making some size gains in all the right places but like I said, waist is down 3 inches.

Now, I've accepted this as my lifestyle and enjoy bodybuilding/training this way. I knew AAS would be part of my journey, just didn't know when that would start. Well here I am.

 

[E32038]

I eat and train like a bodybuilder. Training consists of a 4 day bodypart split, periodization when I stall for long enough. Typically follow a hypertrophy focused rep/set scheme but occasionally switch it up to 5x5 or some variation thereof to make small strength gains before coming back. My diet consists mostly of meat, eggs, veggies, fruits, and either rice or potatoes. Sometimes bread, which I know isn't perfect.

I intermittent fast, typically train in the late morning for 1.5-2hrs and follow that with my largest meal of the day around 1pm. That meal is usually 1.5lbs of chicken breast with 200g of rice, couple eggs and veggies in a stir fry and a Whey shake. Then I may snack on some small fruits or almonds throughout the day, have my final meal closer to 7-8 which is smaller so I change it up often. Eggwhites and sausage, maybe a huge bowl of greek yogurt with fruit, maybe some leftover chicken and rice, whatever. That has been typical for a few years now. Been counting macros since before my wedding now (basically all of 2018) and my goal has been ~1800-1850 on cycle. Making some size gains in all the right places but like I said, waist is down 3 inches.

Now, I've accepted this as my lifestyle and enjoy bodybuilding/training this way. I knew AAS would be part of my journey, just didn't know when that would start. Well here I am.

Sounds like you are on the right track and recognize where you may slip. I do agree with AWM. Yet, I also understand your predicament. You gotta do what you feel is best for you.

Let me ask though, you are 25. Recently married, wife supports your lifestyle choices. Do you guys want kids? It is possible with AAS but the chances go down. Think about that too bro before you jump on TRT.

 

[Mobster]

Some great answers from the guys

 

[stevesmi]

TRT should be a last option for sure.

also remember not everyone is born to bang 1000 women and have sky high test levels. to some 350 test levels is normal for them.

i think a lot of people blame what they think is weak test levels for their issues, but actually there are more deeper things going on.

 

[muskate]

TRT should be a last option for sure.

also remember not everyone is born to bang 1000 women and have sky high test levels. to some 350 test levels is normal for them.

i think a lot of people blame what they think is weak test levels for their issues, but actually there are more deeper things going on.

Yes. There is ALOT more to libido and muscle building then just testosterone.

Testosterone is just ONE hormone.

It would almost be like saying "I can't build legs because I can't squat". Yes...squats are a great exercise for leg development but that's just one exercise. Same with testosterone. There is a lot more to muscle building and libido then just testosterone

 

[Reeserobs]

So, if TRT is a last resort, at what point does one consider it?

Assuming I want to do more cycles in the future, you're recommending that I PCT after each (including my current), work back up to my natural test level of ~300 and I may actually be able to retain some of my progress with that test level between cycles? My thought was that I will most likely not maintain the progress I've made after each cycle, even with diet and training on point, just because my baseline is so low.

 

[Reeserobs]

So, if TRT is a last resort, at what point does one consider it? Specifically for my situation, there must be a time when it makes sense for someone under 30 to use TRT, when is that? Must my test levels be totally shot? I understand that ~300 is the median test level for a 60yr old man. Sure it's within the "normal range" of 300-900 or whatever guidelines you want to use, but my quality of life is to be considered. For every study I've read displaying the risks of TRT/AAS, I've read countless others pointing out the risks of having less than average T. I've spent my entire adult life unhappy with my physique, at this point I don't want to strive for "less than average is still O.K. for me" I want to be like the men that we all look up to.

Assuming I want to do more cycles in the future, you're recommending that I PCT after each (including my current), work back up to my natural test level of ~300 and I may actually be able to retain some of my progress with that test level between cycles? My thought was that I will most likely not maintain the progress I've made after each cycle, even with diet and training on point, just because my baseline is so low.

Couldn't figure out how to edit my post, but wanted to clarify the bolded part.

 

[dylangemelli]

always remember that trt is a LAST RESORT... at 25 years old, you definitely want to exhaust every other measure possible before considering trt

 

[Reeserobs]

always remember that trt is a LAST RESORT... at 25 years old, you definitely want to exhaust every other measure possible before considering trt

Thank you for your thoughts. So here's two hypothetical scenarios... is option 1 better than 2?

1. Pct after each cycle. Rollercoaster my T levels from 3000 to 300 then back up and down again multiple times until eventually my natural test goes from 300, 200, to what? In how long, 5 years? 10 years? If my natural test at 25 is 300, what will it be at 35? I do the rollercoaster for years until my natural test decreases with age until it's Ok to do TRT because it hits a magic number? And how much progress is kept after each cycle with that approach? How will my health look?

2. Establish a new normal, average test baseline between cycles with TRT doses. Avoid the crash and restart with my HPTA.

TRT is a last resort, I get it, but I think it's realistic that I will need it at some point in life unless I want to be 35 with a test level in the 200s? 45 in the 100s? So do I live my best youthful years with the symptoms of low t and then finally regain my virility only when I'm miserable and older?

 

[dylangemelli]

Thank you for your thoughts. So here's two hypothetical scenarios... is option 1 better than 2?

1. Pct after each cycle. Rollercoaster my T levels from 3000 to 300 then back up and down again multiple times until eventually my natural test goes from 300, 200, to what? In how long, 5 years? 10 years? If my natural test at 25 is 300, what will it be at 35? I do the rollercoaster for years until my natural test decreases with age until it's Ok to do TRT because it hits a magic number? And how much progress is kept after each cycle with that approach? How will my health look?

2. Establish a new normal, average test baseline between cycles with TRT doses. Avoid the crash and restart with my HPTA.

TRT is a last resort, I get it, but I think it's realistic that I will need it at some point in life unless I want to be 35 with a test level in the 200s? 45 in the 100s? So do I live my best youthful years with the symptoms of low t and then finally regain my virility only when I'm miserable and older?

thats your decision... im not recommending trt unless you are diagnosed hypogonadal by a doctor... if you were 35 or 40 years old, maybe a different story but i personally am not telling you to start trt at 25 years old.. maybe someone else will but you can skew and write any scenario you want but you dont know for sure how its going to play out, you are just making up hypothetical questions and want hypothetical answers and i personally just dont respond like that bro... so maybe someone else can tell you what you want to hear but i cant...

 

[Reeserobs]

thats your decision... im not recommending trt unless you are diagnosed hypogonadal by a doctor... if you were 35 or 40 years old, maybe a different story but i personally am not telling you to start trt at 25 years old.. maybe someone else will but you can skew and write any scenario you want but you dont know for sure how its going to play out, you are just making up hypothetical questions and want hypothetical answers and i personally just dont respond like that bro... so maybe someone else can tell you what you want to hear but i cant...

Yeah of course, I get it. But of course this is all what's going through my mind at this time.

If you were in my shoes, what would be your first course of action?

 

[awm1981]

Yeah of course, I get it. But of course this is all what's going through my mind at this time.

If you were in my shoes, what would be your first course of action?

For me first course of action would be doctor/endocrinologist. If they arent going to prescribe you TRT then you arent on TRT you are self prescribing.

At 25 years old its still really early in the game. You are already dosing AAS so I would suggest full PCT and then a break from AAS for the cycle length + PCT length which im assuming is going to be about 4 months.

In the meantime take a natural test booster and get bloodwork done and check test levels again.

No one can tell you how you feel with a lower range of test, we get it. You are talking about quality of life with lower than normal T but you really need to look at the side effects and see if its worth it.

Also you need to consider the fact that if you cant get prescribed TRT then you are buying underground lab products which are great but if/when your source dries up what do you do?

Again all things to consider. Some people are naturally born with higher test levels and other lower test levels. If the utmost importance to you is ascetics and not your heart health, prostate health, reproductive health, etc then go for it its your decision just make sure its a fully informed decision.

 

[Sajan]

Reading OP's replies and post, sounds like he wants to be on TRT and needs affirmation from the members.
50+ years of pins, no thanks.

 

[Masonic Bodybuilder]

I think that as time goes on and you continue a healthy lifestyle your natural test levels will end up higher than the original 304. I would absolutely recommend cycle/PCT instead of hopping on TRT.