Anyone else tried Clomid&nolvadex as Test booster?(not pct)

[nelson montana]

Okay, this took about two minutes. The first sentence. https://fertilitycenteroforegon.com/clomiphene-citrate-serophene-or-clomid/

THIS IS THE THING WITH YOU CLOWNS.

Guys like Jason and Body Monster are giving advice to people that have serious consequences. And they have no idea what they're talking about. Their "cred" is that they've been on a message board and a bunch of strangers thing they're "good bros."

It's fine that there are a bunch of guys speculating about this and that and tossing the shit around. But acting like you're an expert is irresponsible enough, but then they to spew their ignorance on others. And when I've come along and tired to impart my 40 years of experience in the field to help the members, I'm treated like a joke. I'm old. I'm out of touch. I'm a has been. These people are either so intimidated by actual intelligence or they're just natural bullies who have to put down others to feel better about themselves. I'm sick of it.

Are these the type of people who want giving you advice about what yto put in your body? Enough.

Bottom line. Clomid may lower estrogen because it itself, an estrogen that takes up estrogen sites. But becuase of its estrogenic qualities it can also impart estrogenic side effects. A lot of people don't knwo this becasue they only know what they're heard on message boards. I know it because I've actually studied this stuff and have worked with prominant people in the field. All these kids do is listen to themselves talk out of their asses.

I'm willing to discuss this but I'm not going to engage in an argument with a mob.

Wise up. Or stay stupid. Either way is fine with me.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, this took about two minutes. The first sentence. https://fertilitycenteroforegon.com/clomiphene-citrate-serophene-or-clomid/

THIS IS THE THING WITH YOU CLOWNS.

Guys like Jason and Body Monster are giving advice to people that have serious consequences. And they have no idea what they're talking about. Their "cred" is that they've been on a message board and a bunch of strangers thing they're "good bros."

It's fine that there are a bunch of guys speculating about this and that and tossing the shit around. But acting like you're an expert is irresponsible enough, but then they to spew their ignorance on others. And when I've come along and tired to impart my 40 years of experience in the field to help the members, I'm treated like a joke. I'm old. I'm out of touch. I'm a has been. These people are either so intimidated by actual intelligence or they're just natural bullies who have to put down others to feel better about themselves. I'm sick of it.

Are these the type of people who want giving you advice about what yto put in your body? Enough.

Bottom line. Clomid may lower estrogen because it itself, an estrogen that takes up estrogen sites. But becuase of its estrogenic qualities it can also impart estrogenic side effects. A lot of people don't knwo this becasue they only know what they're heard on message boards. I know it because I've actually studied this stuff and have worked with prominant people in the field. All these kids do is listen to themselves talk out of their asses.

I'm willing to discuss this but I'm not going to engage in an argument with a mob.

Wise up. Or stay stupid. Either way is fine with me.

 

[JasonPriest]

I asked to see proof because You claimed clomid was an estrogen. It isn't. and your link doesn't prove it is.

everytime someone calls you out on wrong info you go crazy. it is very strange. i've been wrong plenty of times, I acknolwedge that and learn from it then move on and help others. you have never admitted you were wrong ever. it is very strange

 

[nelson montana]

I asked to see proof because You claimed clomid was an estrogen. It isn't. and your link doesn't prove it is.

everytime someone calls you out on wrong info you go crazy. it is very strange. i've been wrong plenty of times, I acknolwedge that and learn from it then move on and help others. you have never admitted you were wrong ever. it is very strange

So a statement from a medical journal isn't good enougn for you? What WOULD be sufficient proof for you?

- - - Updated - - -

Here's another. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0163725881900553

- - - Updated - - -

Here's another. https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(15)00539-7/pdf

- - - Updated - - -

Here's another. https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/ovulation-induction

- - - Updated - - -

HEre's another. https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682704.html

WHEN WILL YOU MAN UP AND JUST ADMIT THAT YOU'RE WRONG?

Never mind. We all know the answer to that one.

 

[JasonPriest]

i read each link and still do not see anything that says that clomid is an estrogen. the closest thing you posted was that clomid was an estrogen antagonist in females. nothing about it being an actual estrogen, or that it acting like estrogen in men.

you are implying that if you use clomid that estrogen rises in the body, which isn't true. but even if it was it still does not mean clomid is an estrogen. so i have no clue where you are coming from.

also the OP posted actual bloodwork which shows you are wrong. it doesn't help anyone in this thread when you ignore bloodwork and makes yourself look bad cause bloodwork can't lie

also not once did I or BM bully you, he didn't even @ you in a post or mention your name lol. please point to the post he did cause i don't see it. I am merely debating you in this thread and you are getting all nasty. you are just a hyper sensitive guy i guess, it doesn't bother me. they warned me when I was made a moderator about people like you so could not care less...

 

[nelson montana]

i read each link and still do not see anything that says that clomid is an estrogen. the closest thing you posted was that clomid was an estrogen antagonist in females. nothing about it being an actual estrogen, or that it acting like estrogen in men.

you are implying that if you use clomid that estrogen rises in the body, which isn't true. but even if it was it still does not mean clomid is an estrogen. so i have no clue where you are coming from.

also the OP posted actual bloodwork which shows you are wrong. it doesn't help anyone in this thread when you ignore bloodwork and makes yourself look bad cause bloodwork can't lie

also not once did I or BM bully you, he didn't even @ you in a post or mention your name lol. please point to the post he did cause i don't see it. I am merely debating you in this thread and you are getting all nasty. you are just a hyper sensitive guy i guess, it doesn't bother me. they warned me when I was made a moderator about people like you so could not care less.

Try harder.

 

[Masonic Bodybuilder]

Back to the original post......what doses of them are you taking?

 

[ballin2504]

I personally steer clear of clomid.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

Nelson,

You are like creating this problem and attacking people and you are wrong in what you are saying too man.

Clomifene is a SERM not "an estrogen". SERMS are considered NOT to be Steroids at least by the medical establishment and pharmaceutical companies as well. Estrogen is considered a steroid actually. It's clear here man "nonsteroidal" vs "steroid". You are wrong.

Saying Clomid is an Estrogen is like saying Ostarine(a SARM) in a Testosterone. You are literally calling a SERM "an estrogen" which would mean that a SARM is "a testosterone". Not only are you misunderstanding the action of the drugs you are also fucking up the way you categorize the drugs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene


Is says:

"Clomifene is in the selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) family of medication and is a nonsteroidal medication."


So look man, you are wrong. Clomid is not "an estrogen", it is a SERM which is considered non-steroidal.

If you want to continue on posting "Clomid is an Estrogen" then from now on it is only right you say "Ostarine, Rad140, YK11 are all Testosterones".


Once we can at least agree to what to call this drug then we can move on to talking about how you think it works and what you think it is doing.


I'll start that next conversation off by saying that Clomid has been researched for the treatment of gynecomastia in adolecent boys. It showed some improvement but not enough to be pursued for that purpose:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6637910/

The important note in that study should be that it actually caused some improvement in Gynecomastia at all which would contradict your claim that it has estrogenic side effects. You can't call just "moodiness" estrogenic side-effect as some people get mood from lack of Caffeine or Nicotine or bad traffic, there are too many variables.

But let's at least get back to the name and definition and you agree to either call Clomid a SERM which it is and if you are not then you need to start calling Ostarine and YK11 both "a testosterone" - You can't have conflicting principles if you want to use your experience and knowledge as the crown that allows you to attack other guys here that are sharing their advice.

 

[nelson montana]

Nelson,

You are like creating this problem and attacking people and you are wrong in what you are saying too man.

Clomifene is a SERM not "an estrogen". SERMS are considered NOT to be Steroids at least by the medical establishment and pharmaceutical companies as well. Estrogen is considered a steroid actually. It's clear here man "nonsteroidal" vs "steroid". You are wrong.

Saying Clomid is an Estrogen is like saying Ostarine in a Testosterone. You are literally calling a SERM "an estrogen" which would mean that Ostarine is "a testosterone". Not only are you misunderstanding the action of the drugs you are also fucking up the way you categorize the drugs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene


Is says:

"Clomifene is in the selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) family of medication and is a nonsteroidal medication."


So look man, you are wrong. Clomid is not "an estrogen", it is a SERM which is considered non-steroidal.

If you want to continue on posting "Clomid is an Estrogen" then from now on it is only right you say "Ostarine, Rad140, YK11 are all Testosterones".


Once we can at least agree to what to call this drug then we can move on to talking about how you think it works and what you think it is doing.


I'll start that next conversation off by saying that Clomid has been researched for the treatment of gynecomastia in adolecent boys. It showed some improvement but not enough to be pursued for that purpose:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6637910/

The important note in that study should be that it actually caused some improvement in Gynecomastia at all which would contradict your claim that it has estrogenic side effects. You can't call just "moodiness" estrogenic side-effect as some people get mood from lack of Caffeine or Nicotine or bad traffic, there are too many variables.

But let's at least get back to the name and definition and you agree to either call Clomid a SERM which it is and if you are not then you need to start calling Ostarine and YK11 both "a testosterone" - You can't have conflicting principles if you want to use your experience and knowledge as the crown that allows you to attack other guys here that are sharing their advice.

I think you misunderstood Rick. Read the literature. It's interesting and informative.

 

[nelson montana]

Nelson,

You are like creating this problem and attacking people and you are wrong in what you are saying too man.
.

Nah, that's bullshit, I'm not attacking anyone. Damn, talk about sensitivity! Jason is the guy who accused me of seeling fake sarms. He demanded that I show my band account. He lied to the members about me. And even tried to tie me to Craig Titus. And I'M the one attacking?! LOL!!! Yeah, okay.

Anyway, I do understand that offering information can create a problem. You are right about that.

Look...here's the thing. I can pass along my knowledge and everyone can take it or leave it. But I can't pretend that i don't know what I know.

Here's a simple excerpt from the literature.

Clomifene is a selective oestrogen receptor modulator that has both oestrogenic and antioestrogenic properties. It is an antagonist at hypothalamic oestrogen receptors and inhibits the negative feedback of oestrogen on gonadotropin release. It is used to stimulate ovulation in anovulatory infertility. After a five-day treatment with clomiphene, LH and FSH levels initially decline but estradiol continues to increase resulting in a preovulatory peak and LH and FSH levels increasing once again. Certain risk factors are associated with clomiphene therapy.

Now I've tried to explain a million tiems how Clomid works and I always get the same response -- it's just what you did. You stated that it does something that is irrespective to my point. Clomid blocks estrogen by occupying the estrogen site becasue it is a form of estrogen in itself. It can aslo RAISE estrogen as it often does. I tried to exlain that as well but people do't want to hear it. Fine.

But you know what's hilarious? I make no money form this. I couldn't give a rats nutsack what anyone thinks about it. It's simply information. And I get my balls busted for it. Okay, tell you what. I'm wrong about everything. Let's move on. Okay?

 

[BodyMonster34]

I agree.
I forgot to post my estrogen and SHBG. They are both in the lower normal range. And I dose Clomid 50mg every other day, not a small dosage. So yeah I doublt Clomid is an estrogen

bro i gotta run bloods too on tanker all the time including drug test for child support and probation, and clomid keep estrogen down, not up. so Fonz wrong, who gonna argue proof against bloodwork. like that some crazy shit to think it a big conspiracy where the bloodwork companies making up the numbers to push clomid ha. truth that clomid work good for lowering estrogen and clomid NOT estrogen. that how it work in first place.

- - - Updated - - -

bro brazilian rick lay smackdown on fonz hard in this thread. he still gonna claim everyone wrong though.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

Nah, that's bullshit, I'm not attacking anyone. Damn, talk about sensitivity! Jason is the guy who accused me of seeling fake sarms. He demanded that I show my band account. He lied to the members about me. And even tried to tie me to Craig Titus. And I'M the one attacking?! LOL!!! Yeah, okay.

Anyway, I do understand that offering information can create a problem. You are right about that.

Look...here's the thing. I can pass along my knowledge and everyone can take it or leave it. But I can't pretend that i don't know what I know.

Here's a simple excerpt from the literature.

Clomifene is a selective oestrogen receptor modulator that has both oestrogenic and antioestrogenic properties. It is an antagonist at hypothalamic oestrogen receptors and inhibits the negative feedback of oestrogen on gonadotropin release. It is used to stimulate ovulation in anovulatory infertility. After a five-day treatment with clomiphene, LH and FSH levels initially decline but estradiol continues to increase resulting in a preovulatory peak and LH and FSH levels increasing once again. Certain risk factors are associated with clomiphene therapy.

Now I've tried to explain a million tiems how Clomid works and I always get the same response -- it's just what you did. You stated that it does something that is irrespective to my point. Clomid blocks estrogen by occupying the estrogen site becasue it is a form of estrogen in itself. It can aslo RAISE estrogen as it often does. I tried to exlain that as well but people do't want to hear it. Fine.

But you know what's hilarious? I make no money form this. I couldn't give a rats nutsack what anyone thinks about it. It's simply information. And I get my balls busted for it. Okay, tell you what. I'm wrong about everything. Let's move on. Okay?

Lets make our arguments clear so we are not fighting in circles and getting nowhere:



-I don't think anyone here is denying that Clomid could cause a rise in estrogen levels due to it raising testosterone levels. I would think most of us agree with you on that.
Nobody here is denying Clomid could raise estrogen along with the rise in testosterone. On the same subject I've seen guys here through he years report their estrogen coming down during Clomid use, I have a good theory on that too ( for another time)
Still, many guys do take Clomid for PCT along with other anti-estrogen drugs.

-Clomid does not cause the symptoms of high estrogen bodybuilders are afraid of like: Gynecomastia, water retention, low bone density, or any of the major ones we worry about. However, Clomid can cause minor estrogen-like side effects like loss of sex drive, Mood swings, anxiety, or depression. But this is what the Clomid side effects are limited to, and for a bodybuilder thinking about using it to grow their testicles back, the choice is pretty clear that they rather take the Clomid.

Those are things we all agree on with you Nelson. Clomid could cause a rise in estrogen, (but not on everyone in every cycle cause I have seen guys report the opposite being true with blood work to match - I have a long theory on it for another thread)...


Now for the disagreement:


-I think the large disagreement here is that you would like guys here to stop advising Clomid use during PCT. Is that it? . . . Yeah Nelson you are all on your own in that planet buddy.

Let's clarify what your actual point is here Nelson. Are you upset that 30 years later guys are still telling each other to use Clomid?

Nobody is saying Clomid doesn't raise estrogen, it does it at the same time it raises testosterone (even D-Aspartic acid does this).
Nobody is saying Clomid doesn't have side effects cause it does. It is just better to suffer them than not running clomid for PCT.

I don't sell Clomid, I actually sell a supplement that I want people to use in the place of Clomid or alongside it. I don't make a dime on Clomid if anything I sell supplements that compete against Clomid and I personally don't use it. I haven't used Clomid in a long time since I started selling HCGenerate ES, and when I did it was only small 25mg per day courses for PCT even then, cause it always made me feel like shit. Moody, depressed, and did raise my estrogen I feel like. There are many many other bros I have worked with all of these years that LOVE the fucking stuff for PCT and swear by it, made their balls grow back, and get their test levels back to pre-cycle ranges. I'm here to serve the community and what is best for the flow of information here, I can't just base my opinion of the drug on my own personal experience with it. Clomid works for many many guys, which is undeniable. Clomid makes many of us feel like utter shit, that is also a fact.


So what is your huge disagreement?


-As far as bodymoster and Jeremy and the bullshit fights of the past few months. All of that bullshit needs to be left behind and it can't keep coming up every time there is a minor clash on some thread man. It's a clean slate at this point.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

IF Clomid causes a rise in estrogen levels then how is it that guys are seeing the estrogen in their bloodwork come down to normal range while taking Clomid.

Two reasons:

-You are taking Clomid for PCT at the same time you are discontinuing your steroid use. You might see your estrogen coming down not cause of Clomid directly but because you are not taking any more steroids that are being aromatized into estrogen. Less steroids = less estrogen.


-You are taking other anti-e drugs along with your Clomid. Pretty simple.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

Clomifene is a selective oestrogen receptor modulator that has both oestrogenic and antioestrogenic properties. It is an antagonist at hypothalamic oestrogen receptors and inhibits the negative feedback of oestrogen on gonadotropin release. It is used to stimulate ovulation in anovulatory infertility. After a five-day treatment with clomiphene, LH and FSH levels initially decline but estradiol continues to increase resulting in a preovulatory peak and LH and FSH levels increasing once again. Certain risk factors are associated with clomiphene therapy.

That is specifically referring to females as any time you raise LH and FSH you raise estrogen levels in females. In men, it works differently because our male bodies are meant a have a very different ratio of testosterone to estradiol. Yes it does raise estrogen some in men as the testosterone levels raise, but not in the same ratios as it does on a female.

 

[Eddie Haskell]

So a statement from a medical journal isn't good enougn for you? What WOULD be sufficient proof for you?



WHEN WILL YOU MAN UP AND JUST ADMIT THAT YOU'RE WRONG?

Never mind. We all know the answer to that one.

Nelson, Clomid is NOT an estrogen, it's a SERM. There is a huge difference between saying something is an estrogen and something modulates the estrogen receptor selectively.

You're misreading the studies. You need to work on being more calm and not trying to prove things that aren't facts. Just because you're wrong, doesn't mean the world ends, people can be wrong.

 

[LordEscanor]

That is specifically referring to females as any time you raise LH and FSH you raise estrogen levels in females. In men, it works differently because our male bodies are meant a have a very different ratio of testosterone to estradiol. Yes it does raise estrogen some in men as the testosterone levels raise, but not in the same ratios as it does on a female.

I read studies It doesn't raise estrogen in men, in fact, It lower It that's why some one can have 1800ng test and 60 free test and still like they have low t, as low t have similar symptom as low estrogen. While guys on TRT having 1000ng test feel 20times better.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

I read studies It doesn't raise estrogen in men, in fact, It lower It that's why some one can have 1800ng test and 60 free test and still like they have low t, as low t have similar symptom as low estrogen. While guys on TRT having 1000ng test feel 20times better.

Here is a study:


Clomiphene in the treatment of adolescent gynecomastia.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6637910/

"Levels of urinary gonadotropins, serum testosterone, and estradiol increased significantly during therapy. Since the ratio of testosterone to estradiol remained unchanged during treatment, the antiestrogen effects were achieved primarily at the level of breast tissue."

 

[nelson montana]

Nelson, Clomid is NOT an estrogen, it's a SERM. There is a huge difference between saying something is an estrogen and something modulates the estrogen receptor selectively.

You're misreading the studies. You need to work on being more calm and not trying to prove things that aren't facts. Just because you're wrong, doesn't mean the world ends, people can be wrong.

I know it's a SERM. You're not talking to some kid who just joined a message board.

- - - Updated - - -

I read studies It doesn't raise estrogen in men, in fact, It lower It that's why some one can have 1800ng test and 60 free test and still like they have low t, as low t have similar symptom as low estrogen. While guys on TRT having 1000ng test feel 20times better.

..................................

It can also raise estrogen . Everyone knows this. Rick already mentioned it.

 

[nelson montana]

Lets make our arguments clear so we are not fighting in circles and getting nowhere:



-I don't think anyone here is denying that Clomid could cause a rise in estrogen levels due to it raising testosterone levels. I would think most of us agree with you on that.
Nobody here is denying Clomid could raise estrogen along with the rise in testosterone. On the same subject I've seen guys here through he years report their estrogen coming down during Clomid use, I have a good theory on that too ( for another time)
Still, many guys do take Clomid for PCT along with other anti-estrogen drugs.

-Clomid does not cause the symptoms of high estrogen bodybuilders are afraid of like: Gynecomastia, water retention, low bone density, or any of the major ones we worry about. However, Clomid can cause minor estrogen-like side effects like loss of sex drive, Mood swings, anxiety, or depression. But this is what the Clomid side effects are limited to, and for a bodybuilder thinking about using it to grow their testicles back, the choice is pretty clear that they rather take the Clomid.

Those are things we all agree on with you Nelson. Clomid could cause a rise in estrogen, (but not on everyone in every cycle cause I have seen guys report the opposite being true with blood work to match - I have a long theory on it for another thread)...


Now for the disagreement:


-I think the large disagreement here is that you would like guys here to stop advising Clomid use during PCT. Is that it? . . . Yeah Nelson you are all on your own in that planet buddy.

Let's clarify what your actual point is here Nelson. Are you upset that 30 years later guys are still telling each other to use Clomid?

Nobody is saying Clomid doesn't raise estrogen, it does it at the same time it raises testosterone (even D-Aspartic acid does this).
Nobody is saying Clomid doesn't have side effects cause it does. It is just better to suffer them than not running clomid for PCT.

I don't sell Clomid, I actually sell a supplement that I want people to use in the place of Clomid or alongside it. I don't make a dime on Clomid if anything I sell supplements that compete against Clomid and I personally don't use it. I haven't used Clomid in a long time since I started selling HCGenerate ES, and when I did it was only small 25mg per day courses for PCT even then, cause it always made me feel like shit. Moody, depressed, and did raise my estrogen I feel like. There are many many other bros I have worked with all of these years that LOVE the fucking stuff for PCT and swear by it, made their balls grow back, and get their test levels back to pre-cycle ranges. I'm here to serve the community and what is best for the flow of information here, I can't just base my opinion of the drug on my own personal experience with it. Clomid works for many many guys, which is undeniable. Clomid makes many of us feel like utter shit, that is also a fact.


So what is your huge disagreement?


-As far as bodymoster and Jeremy and the bullshit fights of the past few months. All of that bullshit needs to be left behind and it can't keep coming up every time there is a minor clash on some thread man. It's a clean slate at this point.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. I think the discrepancy is in the interpretation. I'm not advising people to stop taking Clomid. I just said that once you sop taking it, T levels will drop back down. In the meantime , it can make you feel like shit. That's a fact.

As for Body Monster and Jason, look...I'm human. I get annoyed. And it isn't over a difference of opinion. I don't care if they don't like me and I don't care if they don't respect me. But honestly bro ...you think I'm here to pick fights with people? Come on.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a study:


Clomiphene in the treatment of adolescent gynecomastia.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6637910/

"Levels of urinary gonadotropins, serum testosterone, and estradiol increased significantly during therapy. Since the ratio of testosterone to estradiol remained unchanged during treatment, the antiestrogen effects were achieved primarily at the level of breast tissue."

Thank you.

 

[Ricky V Rock]

I just said that once you sop taking it, T levels will drop back down. In the meantime , it can make you feel like shit. That's a fact.


Thank you.

Okay, you are not wrong about this either and not fully right about it either.

let me explain:


When you take Clomid during PCT you are basically fooling the brain into reacting as if your estrogen is actually low and so your pituitary reacts by making more LH and FSH, which will stimulate the Leydig cells that are sometimes atrophied by the end of the cycle. This raises natural testosterone production bringing you out of suppression after cycle. Call it post-cycle therapy. We know this!

This is only a hack we use so that we don't lose all of our gains, but if you are not worried about losing gains then it may not be completely necessary for everyone on every cycle.
In fact, if we did NO PCT at all and just stopped cold turkey, most healthy males would recover their natural testosterone production again over time anyway. Over a long long time much longer than running Clomid and you'll lose gains but you will recover one day. I'm saying most, but I don't think all. We all know the guys that quit steroids cold turkey and kept their gains and we all know guys that ran PCT and are suppressed still months and years later we've seen everything...

The main reason I say most of us would recover natural testosterone production is that at some point estrogen levels would drop naturally from lack of steroids and lack of testosterone production, your brain would reactivate pituitary production of gonadotropins once your estrogen levels dropped from suppression of testosterone. With Clomid, we are just fooling the brain into acting as if though estrogen was low like it will be a month or two later anyway.


So yes, I agree with you that after you discontinue clomid the direct effects from clomid will go away, but by the time the effects go away, you should be recovered. The clomid served its purpose to help you start your natural testosterone production much quicker than without! If you had just waited the weeks and months it would take for your synthetic steroid esters to break down and for your estrogen levels to drop and for your brain to react to the lowered estrogen levels, you would still recover but you would lose all of your gains.

Clomid serves the purpose of getting you to cross that bridge over to max natural testosterone production from the steroid use... Yes by the time you get off the Clomid your body should be clear of synthetic steroids and your estrogen levels should be back to normal and so you can come off the clomid and still maintain your musculature with your higher testosterone levels. Look man I to this day think that my HCGenerate product can do this much more effectively than Clomid and with much fewer side effects, but I don't want to turn everyone into my enemy by shoving my product down their throat, so instead I give neutral advice about clomid. Although maybe I should be trying a lot harder to turn guys on to my herbal products instead. support my product guys get it from www.HCGenerate.com take 5 caps per day during cycle to avoid suppression and 5-7 caps per day during PCT!