Veteran Thread Training to failure and other means of upping the intensity

[Mobster]

I think it's important to definitely switch angles on different muscles

Changing the angle
I'm both for and against it. You MUST have the genetics to respond well

For: If you do and again using chest as an example then changing an angle to emphasize different parts of the chest will work well. Take the Arnold era chest which was bottom heavy (see his side chest by way of an illustration) vs the 90's on wards which has a far more even top to bottom development (see Phil Heath). Some of that is different era different athletes and different judging criteria and, arguably, changing angles changing a muscles shape

Also just sheer varying the movement stops tedium and not wanting to train. You could do 4 months top, 4 middle and 4 bottom.

Against: little to no evidence of actual muscle shaping. If you are blessed (or cursed depending on what you wanted) with short insertions so have a full long bicep but lack a peak you can TRY to do what amounts to peaking type movements (concentration curls being one). You can work the inner and outer head and so on. But pretty much every single top pro ever (and a few that aren't top Olympia level) look like bigger fuller versions of when they started. Dexter Jackson is a MrOlympia and a good example.

If it worked as well as we'd like it to you wouldn't recognize even top athletes with the best genes ever cos they'd be transformed.

By all means change training to keep the muscle stimulated and, again, by all means, enjoy feeling that burn and pump in a new place. Finally maximize da f**k out of what you do have.

 

[Mobster]

bros contraction important. people don't realize that

Contraction
So important. I've mentioned the local former (no longer renews his card) IFBB Pro. When I've seen him training for a competition, and his head is in the game so to speak, he will get more out of an exercise than many. Key, which I've also seen him coach, is squeezing at the point of contraction.

Let's be honest it's hard, uncomfortable and often painful. It's a lot easier to hope volume, sets and reps will make it happen. But if you can learn to do it on every rep you wont wanna do 10 sets etc

 

[Mobster]

always a good idea to change up gyms as well just something fresh

Do you need to change gyms?
I'm not so sure. What I HAVE seen is no one gym has everything a pro wants. jay Cutler would do cardio at one, chest at another and so on. Sometimes I'll see a member here say 'oh I can't train X cos my gym doesn't have one'. I'm either 'do something else' or 'go to a different gym'. If you drive and live in a decent sized town there will be other options. I do not drive but if I did there are 4-5 minimum within 20-25 minutes drive.

I'm lucky (and that kind of personality too) my local gym is friendly. I've donated (even made one) equipment to them which I then get to use ha ha. I've helped them source kit (I used thew owners card to buy 50kg plates which only I used and then bought them from the gym for less than it costs). And, of course, I've posted pics of my own well equipped home gym.

By way of proof that you don't need to change gyms never mind it be nice etc - Wabba pro and Evo member Monstro. The vast majority of his training in recent years (inc, I think, when he got his card) was done in a home gym. Only occasionally will you see him (again via his Instagram) training elsewhere - usually when he's travelling so a hotel or local commercial gym to the event he's attending (Fibo being one such event).

When I have changed gyms it's usually because I've had to (moved home) or opened my own (the warehouse for the supps business housed our strongman gym. I even bought a longer high quality steel loading pin for the other gyms (Gymnation - now closed) leg press so I could use more weight (it went from 500kg/1100lbs to 765kg which I eventually managed). When COVID happened I spend £4-5000 on my gym in total so I coul;d keep my ass going.

Not enough gym users know to go hard properly (how many do you see really squatting??) on the compounds? Others (I've seen and even used such gyms) chose a gym with faggy weights (one place I used once only had 160kg in Olympic plates. Another was very nice but I could curl their heaviest dumbbells even then (all 37.5kg/80lbs or so). Mind you I can now do that for 14 reps with the 90kg/198lbs at my local gym. But my gym I can make a dumbbell to 125kg/275lbs if I needed to.

If the gyms then by all means change it. But I've never changed gyms just for different scenery.

One reason I might (and have done) Big fish small pond syndrome. I was the 'alpha dog' at a local swimming baths gym. I could max it all and there was no free weights. But I tried another gym where I was no longer the big fish. I was barely a medium sized fish. Changing to a better (read more hardcore gym) made me better.

 

[Mobster]

yes mobster consistency is important I've been going at it for years

Ditto. Didn't stop during Covid. Heck, when I could barely walk in 2016 and had to (no choice at all) stop weights for 16 weeks I still squeezed grippers. This year makes 43 years lifting for me

 

[Mobster]

this is why logging is so important so we can see how people are training and help them

100%

Keep a diary / tracking progress / running a log

6x Mr O Yates kept note books. I have a few (loads missing) almost from when I started. I was able to keyword search a log on the Gripboard (my log there is 21 years old!!) to see how I trained when I did my previous best bench.

Yates did what we encourage and suggest to new members. Track what works, discard what doesn't. See what we did when we were tip top and what we did when we were poor.

Every so often we see a gap the member misses and boom - improvement!!

 

[Mobster]

Slowing down Speeding up and Cheating
Slow first
So if you wanna find the most anal lifters online go check out the Super Slow protocol mob lol. Skinny mofos almost to a man they are the kind of Joes who 'research' more than they actually lift. Heck the name was even trade marked cos... well why not. Ironically slowing down is actually a good idea. In doing so you take the momentum out of a movement. All of us and especially as a strength athlete use momentum.

Now if you take momentum out of an exercise you automatically make it harder and stricter. You could experiment and proof this to yourself. Do a left arm and a right arm curling movement. One lose as you like. Fast and loose. The other arm, same weighted dumbbell, a LOT slower. Tell me which was harder.

A little faster
Now I've done this with those I train with or coach from time to time. You start a set slow-ish (as above) Then, as fatigue sets in, I'll say 'now try and go quicker'. Because you're tired it feels impossible but even the act of trying to go a fraction quicker will engage more muscle fibres. Now that literally amounts to better engagement. So more muscle growth stimulus

NOW CHEAT
Instead of, as we often see, cheating from the get go, you do the two methods about you NOW get a little looser in form you'll engage more fibres again. I've touched upon elsewhere the way that works. There's no such thing as 100% of all the fibres being engaged. Never happens. It's a safety mechanism from nature. If you could do it (say for arms) you'd not be able to move your arms for sometime after. But the more you DO engage the better.

Done properly you'll almost certainly not be able to perform too many sets. Indeed I'd get you to warm up, do a couple of sets working to the top weight then use these three properly used intensifiers that may well prove to be enough.

But be sure to be SLOW. Not a little bit but a LOT less faster thasn normal. Don't get hung up on the best tempo - just less speed and a great emphasis on the least amount of momentum THEN add in 2nd the and 3rd tips

 

[ballin2504]

nobody out there talks about training enough but it's really the most important thing when it comes to building a physique that you love

we are going to talk more about training on the podcast over the next couple of years because no one else is talking about it so stay tuned

Can’t wait brother!!!

Nice thread mobster!!!! A lot of great information.

 

[Mobster]

Negatives
This one was a cornerstone part of the Nautilus training protocol and still has a place in training. It's an actual part of training as is never mind if we specifically focus on it as a training intensifier. After all you both lift (positive) and lower (negative). Nautilus and Arthur Jones had to use both specialized machines as well as assistants in their experiments. Literally they'd have 2-4 people assist with lifting a weight back to the start. That'd be cool but unlikely so we'll go with a few ideas.

A super easy one (although the actual activity will feel hard as f**k ja ha) to do negatives on is Leg Extensions. Two legs up, one leg down. You'd need to modify the weight to around 70-80% of your normal working weight. That's only because of the positive (2 legged up) fatigue issue.

Another, which will involve both cheating (if done solo) or have an assist (if training with a buddy), would be curling. You start with a weight and rep range that tales you to positive failure. Let's be nice and use an EZ bar loaded to 80lbs and it's a two handed curl. You did warm up sets and even a couple of work sets prior with the 80lbs. Both those sets hit a nice 12 reps. In your 3rd set fatigue sets in at, for example, 8 reps. Take a breath and swing/cheat it up. Hold it for a second then lower it SLOWLY. Cheat it up again and again lower it as slow as you can (it'll be quicker than before but as slow as you can make it) and then do one more. That should be enough. The rep ranges will vary depending on who you are.

One more trick you can add, esp to that first negative attempt, is to try and hold/stop the lowering. It's easier nearer the top but bloody hard as the muscle is stretched. IF you do this you'll do less negatives overall.

I'll add a warning: The more negatives you do (indeed a few have tried to do ALL negative sets) the risk of injury increases. Not necessarily cos of the negative itself but because form tends to fail and if, for example, fatigue makes you drop the weight there's a greater chance of a problem.

 

[Pigsy]

Do you need to change gyms?
I'm not so sure. What I HAVE seen is no one gym has everything a pro wants. jay Cutler would do cardio at one, chest at another and so on. Sometimes I'll see a member here say 'oh I can't train X cos my gym doesn't have one'. I'm either 'do something else' or 'go to a different gym'. If you drive and live in a decent sized town there will be other options. I do not drive but if I did there are 4-5 minimum within 20-25 minutes drive.

I'm lucky (and that kind of personality too) my local gym is friendly. I've donated (even made one) equipment to them which I then get to use ha ha. I've helped them source kit (I used thew owners card to buy 50kg plates which only I used and then bought them from the gym for less than it costs). And, of course, I've posted pics of my own well equipped home gym.

By way of proof that you don't need to change gyms never mind it be nice etc - Wabba pro and Evo member Monstro. The vast majority of his training in recent years (inc, I think, when he got his card) was done in a home gym. Only occasionally will you see him (again via his Instagram) training elsewhere - usually when he's travelling so a hotel or local commercial gym to the event he's attending (Fibo being one such event).

When I have changed gyms it's usually because I've had to (moved home) or opened my own (the warehouse for the supps business housed our strongman gym. I even bought a longer high quality steel loading pin for the other gyms (Gymnation - now closed) leg press so I could use more weight (it went from 500kg/1100lbs to 765kg which I eventually managed). When COVID happened I spend £4-5000 on my gym in total so I coul;d keep my ass going.

Not enough gym users know to go hard properly (how many do you see really squatting??) on the compounds? Others (I've seen and even used such gyms) chose a gym with faggy weights (one place I used once only had 160kg in Olympic plates. Another was very nice but I could curl their heaviest dumbbells even then (all 37.5kg/80lbs or so). Mind you I can now do that for 14 reps with the 90kg/198lbs at my local gym. But my gym I can make a dumbbell to 125kg/275lbs if I needed to.

If the gyms then by all means change it. But I've never changed gyms just for different scenery.

One reason I might (and have done) Big fish small pond syndrome. I was the 'alpha dog' at a local swimming baths gym. I could max it all and there was no free weights. But I tried another gym where I was no longer the big fish. I was barely a medium sized fish. Changing to a better (read more hardcore gym) made me better.

I train my home gym and still the little fish in the pond. I collected most of the equipment I need in bodybuilding. There a couple more things I like but there rare to come up on the second hand market. Always looking though. I like clusters and dropsets. When harvest time and time is limited I do giant sets one bonus of having your own gym. I love the training talk the most for me. Well done Mobster.

 

[Wsrey1969]

I'd like to add something to the discussion if I may; Positive muscular failure is not total failure. You still have the negative portion of the rep and the static hold.
I believe Mentzer said that in reality the positive part of a rep is acting the least productive because it's the portion where you use the least amount of weight. If you can bench say 315, you probably lower under control what 375 and can probably hold closer to 400 in a static position.
Once you reach positive failure you can do controlled negatives and then a static hold. A machine press with those feet assist are great for that as are the assisted pullups/ dip machines.

 

[Npcclassicphysique champ]

Do you need to change gyms?
I'm not so sure. What I HAVE seen is no one gym has everything a pro wants. jay Cutler would do cardio at one, chest at another and so on. Sometimes I'll see a member here say 'oh I can't train X cos my gym doesn't have one'. I'm either 'do something else' or 'go to a different gym'. If you drive and live in a decent sized town there will be other options. I do not drive but if I did there are 4-5 minimum within 20-25 minutes drive.

I'm lucky (and that kind of personality too) my local gym is friendly. I've donated (even made one) equipment to them which I then get to use ha ha. I've helped them source kit (I used thew owners card to buy 50kg plates which only I used and then bought them from the gym for less than it costs). And, of course, I've posted pics of my own well equipped home gym.

By way of proof that you don't need to change gyms never mind it be nice etc - Wabba pro and Evo member Monstro. The vast majority of his training in recent years (inc, I think, when he got his card) was done in a home gym. Only occasionally will you see him (again via his Instagram) training elsewhere - usually when he's travelling so a hotel or local commercial gym to the event he's attending (Fibo being one such event).

When I have changed gyms it's usually because I've had to (moved home) or opened my own (the warehouse for the supps business housed our strongman gym. I even bought a longer high quality steel loading pin for the other gyms (Gymnation - now closed) leg press so I could use more weight (it went from 500kg/1100lbs to 765kg which I eventually managed). When COVID happened I spend £4-5000 on my gym in total so I coul;d keep my ass going.

Not enough gym users know to go hard properly (how many do you see really squatting??) on the compounds? Others (I've seen and even used such gyms) chose a gym with faggy weights (one place I used once only had 160kg in Olympic plates. Another was very nice but I could curl their heaviest dumbbells even then (all 37.5kg/80lbs or so). Mind you I can now do that for 14 reps with the 90kg/198lbs at my local gym. But my gym I can make a dumbbell to 125kg/275lbs if I needed to.

If the gyms then by all means change it. But I've never changed gyms just for different scenery.

One reason I might (and have done) Big fish small pond syndrome. I was the 'alpha dog' at a local swimming baths gym. I could max it all and there was no free weights. But I tried another gym where I was no longer the big fish. I was barely a medium sized fish. Changing to a better (read more hardcore gym) made me better.

@Mobster i think many guys should change gyms, the more hardcore the better IMO
these mainstream gyms suck

 

[stevesmi]

with changing gyms sometimes that can backfire if the current gym you're at has a good environment and you have a good friendship with management and other members there

I had to change gyms after many years because the owner decided to start grifting and was charging us fees that weren't agreed upon when I signed up and also asking for handouts post covid. he also sold another gym during that time so it was obvious he no longer was motivated to be a gym owner so it was time to go

 

[Mobster]

I'd like to add something to the discussion if I may; Positive muscular failure is not total failure. You still have the negative portion of the rep and the static hold.
I believe Mentzer said that in reality the positive part of a rep is acting the least productive because it's the portion where you use the least amount of weight. If you can bench say 315, you probably lower under control what 375 and can probably hold closer to 400 in a static position.
Once you reach positive failure you can do controlled negatives and then a static hold. A machine press with those feet assist are great for that as are the assisted pullups/ dip machines.

Of course I covered both those points in this mornings reply. I also addressed how NO ONE can ever hit 100% muscle fibre engagement. Although you CAN have 100% failure if only briefly

Another exercise we can negatives on - CHINS!!

I might address the isometric (aka static stuff separately from pausing as you lower a negative) in another post

 

[Pigsy]

with changing gyms sometimes that can backfire if the current gym you're at has a good environment and you have a good friendship with management and other members there

As I train home most of the time. I do go other gyms as casual visitor. To use different equipment and see what I like. Then go on the search to see if I can source it for home gym. Every gym I been to in my state is sterile and no atmosphere. Everyone got the headphones on heads down in the phones. So the atmosphere exactly the same as training by myself at home. No hardcore here unfortunately

 

[Mobster]

@Mobster i think many guys should change gyms, the more hardcore the better IMO
these mainstream gyms suck

A step in the right direction. Commercially bodybuilders and other advanced lifters do NOT make money sense (directly at least) - the fitness crowd do.

Couple of examples of how being seen as 'serious' has been useful outside of the stories I've told before:

1) Brixton Sports Centre: not a hardcore gym as such but 100% a black area (and not long after the Brixton riots). I was 'ok' cos I was maxing the fuck out of stuff and minding my business lol.

2) A Sheffield Gym: trained my ass off to the point where, baring in mind I'd never been before and never went again, the person behind the desk gave me a glass of water as I looked like death sitting outside lol

 

[Mobster]

As I train home most of the time. I do go other gyms as casual visitor. To use different equipment and see what I like. Then go on the search to see if I can source it for home gym. Every gym I been to in my state is sterile and no atmosphere. Everyone got the headphones on heads down in the phones. So the atmosphere exactly the same as training myself at home. No hardcore here unfortunately

I've decided I might as well have a rest day when travelling as the gyms in hotels etc have been so poor as to make me think it's not worth the bother.

I'm still looking for an upgrade to my leg press (I wanna 4 pin that can hold 1000kg)

 

[Pigsy]

Look at getting the Nautilus Xplode i have. It have 4 post and doesn't have to be loaded up as much. Only need 2 thirds of the weight as say the Hammer Strength. The arsenal leg press as it a 35 degree leg press is 15 plates a side for 20 reps. You be doing 25 on that one

 

[stevesmi]

As I train home most of the time. I do go other gyms as casual visitor. To use different equipment and see what I like. Then go on the search to see if I can source it for home gym. Every gym I been to in my state is sterile and no atmosphere. Everyone got the headphones on heads down in the phones. So the atmosphere exactly the same as training by myself at home. No hardcore here unfortunately

the entire gym environment is so important and it starts with management. no matter how many gyms i try NOTHING will ever beat my high school gym. old equipment, chipped weights, bent bars, dusty and no A/C... but it was simply the best and it was free to train at lol.

 

[MONSTRO]

mobster you should write a book on old school training

 

[Vadim Fedorov]

Yeah we need to see mobster write a book next