Veteran Thread Barbell Squats vs Smith Machine Squats

[Mobster]

What I've seen
So in recent months I'm seeing more than a few loggers only squatting in a smith machine. And I wonder why. I KNOW that variants of smith machine squats can be used to emphasize quads over g;lutes and the like. Yet I also feel that a few might be avoiding working hard with an actual barbell on their backs. Here's a few thoughts and suggestions on that topic.

Why you might seem to have no choice
One or two of our loggers have injuries and or ongoing medical issues. Iffy knees, bad hips or back issues. I those cases it's needs must - you gotta do what you gotta do. Even 6x Dorian Yates had this issue (a hip injury) and he ended up with decent legs. The other issue might be your choice of gym and their available equipment. In other words they don't have either a squat rack or stands or a power rack. See my suggestions fort alternatives but equally, unless you live in real small town, train at a better gym (even if only once a fortnight). Even I can no longer get both hands onto a straight bar (restrictions in my right shoulder) so use a safety squat bar.

The benefits
Now IF you are avoid what I'm gonna term proper squats you ARE missing out. Yes they can be brutal and uncomfortable but equally they are just about the most anabolic of lifts you'll ever do. Done for 20 reps and using the breathing hard method (see Randall Strossen's Super Squats book and others) and your WHOLE body will GROW. I alternate. Literally, as with the same argument for barbells over machines, just having to balance a bar means you work harder rep for rep over a machine squat. That means you'll work your core, hamstrings, calves... everything. Even arms by pulling the bar down onto your traps.

Rotating lifts
One trick I've written elsewhere on (my log for example) is I rotate lifts. That means as brutal as Hatfield Squats are (so much so I find the next days training harder) I also do Power Machine Squats and the Lever Squat Machine version. So, depending on what your gym has, you could do these versions or even others (see alternatives) as well as or instead of smith machine squats.

Other alternatives
A few gyms have hip belt machines and, although it'll be less weight, you can mimic this with a dumbbell. You can try the facing into a hack squat machine version (a few pros have photos of themselves doing this). You can even do an actual barbell hack squat too

But be sure not to avoid squats just cos they're hard.

 

[Eddie Haskell]

What I've seen
So in recent months I'm seeing more than a few loggers only squatting in a smith machine. And I wonder why. I KNOW that variants of smith machine squats can be used to emphasize quads over g;lutes and the like. Yet I also feel that a few might be avoiding working hard with an actual barbell on their backs. Here's a few thoughts and suggestions on that topic.

Why you might seem to have no choice
One or two of our loggers have injuries and or ongoing medical issues. Iffy knees, bad hips or back issues. I those cases it's needs must - you gotta do what you gotta do. Even 6x Dorian Yates had this issue (a hip injury) and he ended up with decent legs. The other issue might be your choice of gym and their available equipment. In other words they don't have either a squat rack or stands or a power rack. See my suggestions fort alternatives but equally, unless you live in real small town, train at a better gym (even if only once a fortnight). Even I can no longer get both hands onto a straight bar (restrictions in my right shoulder) so use a safety squat bar.

The benefits
Now IF you are avoid what I'm gonna term proper squats you ARE missing out. Yes they can be brutal and uncomfortable but equally they are just about the most anabolic of lifts you'll ever do. Done for 20 reps and using the breathing hard method (see Randall Strossen's Super Squats book and others) and your WHOLE body will GROW. I alternate. Literally, as with the same argument for barbells over machines, just having to balance a bar means you work harder rep for rep over a machine squat. That means you'll work your core, hamstrings, calves... everything. Even arms by pulling the bar down onto your traps.

Rotating lifts
One trick I've written elsewhere on (my log for example) is I rotate lifts. That means as brutal as Hatfield Squats are (so much so I find the next days training harder) I also do Power Machine Squats and the Lever Squat Machine version. So, depending on what your gym has, you could do these versions or even others (see alternatives) as well as or instead of smith machine squats.

Other alternatives
A few gyms have hip belt machines and, although it'll be less weight, you can mimic this with a dumbbell. You can try the facing into a hack squat machine version (a few pros have photos of themselves doing this). You can even do an actual barbell hack squat too

But be sure not to avoid squats just cos they're hard.

@Mobster I agree with you, doing free weight squats is much better than smith machines for long term muscle development and core development. Though, smith machine is likely the best way for injured guys or guys with issues.

I saw you talking about it in this thread:
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums...ne-and-equipoise-cycle-log.96512/post-1456935

About episode 586 interesting I'm listening to it now:
https://www.evolutionary.org/evolutionary-org-586-how-to-get-better-at-bench-press-deadlift-squat/

 

[Mobster]

I'm guessing it's as often as not the gym and or what said members see others doing. Even in the gym I go to I'll see (on the rare occasion I'm there later in the day) younger members avoiding what looks hard. If 50 go only 5 deadlift, squat or barbell bench press. And they all seem to want the same thing (a bod to make their buds jealous and girls moon over lol)

For example and again this is from logs here and might well feel like I'm having a dig at said member - I'm not (as I said recently on podcasts we ALL want you to kick ass in the gym and hit your targets). But if you are NOT pro level and looking to compete and weigh all of 145lbs why are you doing 6+ exercises for biceps alone per session? Try TWO and KILL THEM.

I'd rather, as I HAVE seen one member do, a member do JUST SQUATS and destroy their quads. Squats and other compound exercises ARE hard and that's what makes them effective. And they're not technical. Heck even the late Louie Simmons and others pointed out it's just sitting down on the fkin toilet and standing up harder - nothing more or less.

IF (big IF) you ARE pussying out... stop that and get nasty and GROW. Do NOT be focussing on the outer or inner thigh when you've no thigh to speak off lol.

Even on the smith... do MORE than what you weigh not less. Or else you get a better workout carrying shopping up steps.

Learn to love them and thank me later

 

[stevesmi]

the smith machine is dangerous on the joints

think about why:

if you do a squat and the bar is on a track up and down there is no way to move it in any direction, it only goes up or down. you are locked into the movement whether it is correct or not. so it potentially will put an incredible amount of pressure on joints. same with doing bench press or militaries on them. absolutely horrible on the shoulders

there is no natural movement because its on a track .. this is the #1 reason not to use them

the #2 reason it is teaches you bad form. you won't be able to translate a smith machine squat to a real squat. you will likely be wobbling all over the place because you are no longer cheating on a track. so you actually make yourself weaker in the process since it doesn't help with stabilization.

think of surfing or water skiing on a board that locks your feet into it, that is what a smith machine is like. its a combination of cheating and injury risk all in 1 and doesn't teach you how to really do it.

if your gym doesn't have a bench press or a squat rack then use dumbbells instead. weighted lunges and holding a dumbbell or bar and squatting
or do what i did for years which is have your own rack at home that you can do.

 

[Mobster]

the smith machine is dangerous on the joints

think about why:

if you do a squat and the bar is on a track up and down there is no way to move it in any direction, it only goes up or down. you are locked into the movement whether it is correct or not. so it potentially will put an incredible amount of pressure on joints. same with doing bench press or militaries on them. absolutely horrible on the shoulders

there is no natural movement because its on a track .. this is the #1 reason not to use them

the #2 reason it is teaches you bad form. you won't be able to translate a smith machine squat to a real squat. you will likely be wobbling all over the place because you are no longer cheating on a track. so you actually make yourself weaker in the process since it doesn't help with stabilization.

think of surfing or water skiing on a board that locks your feet into it, that is what a smith machine is like. its a combination of cheating and injury risk all in 1 and doesn't teach you how to really do it.

if your gym doesn't have a bench press or a squat rack then use dumbbells instead. weighted lunges and holding a dumbbell or bar and squatting
or do what i did for years which is have your own rack at home that you can do.

It's true. I even showed a 2x bodyweight bench press champ (75kg/155lbs bwt vs 150kg/330lbs bench) masters class (50+) how if we only ever did one pathway of movement (so any machine but esp the smith in this example) he was weak (heck me too). I had him bench press a broomstick and pushed it with a finger on one end and he wobbled like a mo fo lol.

Go look at any top class sports teams gym. 100% a American Football gym. They all 20+ power racks and freeweight set ups. Why? Because when you're out there on the field the ball and or player comes from any angle. Not on specific pathway. And even the smallest player, the kicker right (I'm a Brit) is muscular. Just in case they get hit. And every team now has a highly qualified (degree or graduate level) and very well paid (6 figures) strength & conditioning coach. And they have them killing freeweights. Go watch one of team training videos when they're all screaming. It's NEVER for a smith machine squat lol

And smith machines are useful and can be in the rotation too

One reason for some gyms to have no rack etc is insurance and liability fears vs less liability with most machines. Yet a couple of years ago we all saw that video from Brazil where a mom broker her neck and died on a smith machine ignoring the PT when she un-racked 4 plates a side in front of her daughter. It's easier to dump a squat bar (owner wont like it but you wont be dead)

 

[ceo]

bros mobster i usually agree with you but on this no
smith machine Has its place

 

[ROIDDERS]

so why do so many gyms have Smith machines then?
if they were so bad for you you would think they would be banned

 

[chesty]

I think that squats are very good
but I also think that it's not necessary to do them to be successful at bodybuilding

 

[Ulter]

I think you make some good points mobster
for me I find myself not able to squat like I used to because of my bad knees

 

[StevenDarwinMD]

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This thread/post/message was also fact checked by Steven Darwin, MD and our medical review board.

Full editorial process was followed, and please read our medical disclaimer, check our editorial process.

 

[e2]

I know a guy who can't squat anymore because of his hip
I would think that in his situation it's better just to avoid them

 

[2Thick]

I agree with you mobster squats are very important
and more importantly you should definitely be doing them with proper form

 

[Vadim Fedorov]

I think people will grow more doing squats I agree with you
but I don't agree that the Smith machine is no good it has a purpose

 

[MONSTRO]

Monstro trains like a bull
that should be how we train every time we walk into the gym like it's our last day

 

[25homes]

as long as you ass to grass either will get the Job done well

 

[ballin2504]

as long as you ass to grass either will get the Job done well

I feel the same on this

 

[RoidRage69]

I feel they have a purpose. Only use them if you have no squat racks in the gym. Another good way to use a smith machine is to be able to go really wide stance and put feet further out in front of the bar to target different muscle groups. I wont use them though unless I am forced too do so.

 

[Mobster]

I know a guy who can't squat anymore because of his hip
I would think that in his situation it's better just to avoid them

This is what happened (and is mentioned) with Dorian.

 

[Mobster]

I feel they have a purpose. Only use them if you have no squat racks in the gym. Another good way to use a smith machine is to be able to go really wide stance and put feet further out in front of the bar to target different muscle groups. I wont use them though unless I am forced too do so.

Change gyms

 

[Ori]

What I've seen
So in recent months I'm seeing more than a few loggers only squatting in a smith machine. And I wonder why. I KNOW that variants of smith machine squats can be used to emphasize quads over g;lutes and the like. Yet I also feel that a few might be avoiding working hard with an actual barbell on their backs. Here's a few thoughts and suggestions on that topic.

Why you might seem to have no choice
One or two of our loggers have injuries and or ongoing medical issues. Iffy knees, bad hips or back issues. I those cases it's needs must - you gotta do what you gotta do. Even 6x Dorian Yates had this issue (a hip injury) and he ended up with decent legs. The other issue might be your choice of gym and their available equipment. In other words they don't have either a squat rack or stands or a power rack. See my suggestions fort alternatives but equally, unless you live in real small town, train at a better gym (even if only once a fortnight). Even I can no longer get both hands onto a straight bar (restrictions in my right shoulder) so use a safety squat bar.

The benefits
Now IF you are avoid what I'm gonna term proper squats you ARE missing out. Yes they can be brutal and uncomfortable but equally they are just about the most anabolic of lifts you'll ever do. Done for 20 reps and using the breathing hard method (see Randall Strossen's Super Squats book and others) and your WHOLE body will GROW. I alternate. Literally, as with the same argument for barbells over machines, just having to balance a bar means you work harder rep for rep over a machine squat. That means you'll work your core, hamstrings, calves... everything. Even arms by pulling the bar down onto your traps.

Rotating lifts
One trick I've written elsewhere on (my log for example) is I rotate lifts. That means as brutal as Hatfield Squats are (so much so I find the next days training harder) I also do Power Machine Squats and the Lever Squat Machine version. So, depending on what your gym has, you could do these versions or even others (see alternatives) as well as or instead of smith machine squats.

Other alternatives
A few gyms have hip belt machines and, although it'll be less weight, you can mimic this with a dumbbell. You can try the facing into a hack squat machine version (a few pros have photos of themselves doing this). You can even do an actual barbell hack squat too

But be sure not to avoid squats just cos they're hard.

Going to look up the breathing hard method I’ve never heard of that.

I was doing safety bar squats before I stopped training legs this past month or so. Will go back to them eventually. I’ve heard all the injury stuff as well, and I guess there is a level of that where you have to leave it alone at least for heavy weight. But I think most people that use the excuse have no right to be using it.

I have knee, hip and back injuries. I have a chip from my left knee cap that’s inside my patella tendon. Injured my iliosacral joint years ago can’t remember even what is called. I also have a herniated disc in my lower back. That’s just mechanical stuff. I also need a blood transfusion, my HCT etc is that low again, also waiting for surgery etc. Have severe autoimmune issues list keeps going.

Here’s me lifting 352lbs off the floor, trap bar deadlift, with all the above problems. Literally I should be in hospital but am doing this. Yeah I don’t accept most peoples excuses for anything anymore.